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Motorcycle Forum / Country Specific / Australian Group / November 2008new or used: a question of economy
I've had 3 bikes in the 3 years of my riding life: 97 GPX250 - it had 20K on the clock when I got it - not ridden all that regularly. It had about 48000 when I wrote it off <blush> several months later. 2006 GS500F - bought it new. Sold it 15 months later with 48000kms on it. 2008 SV650S - bought it new in April 08. Now has 18000kms on it. After recent discussions in here about shortarses and seat heights I'm coming to terms with the fact that European bike manufacturers are far more cognizant of the (pardon pun) shortcomings of shortarses. HOWEVER - this comes at a price. Given the fact that my bike is my only transport (unless I have to take the germy bus - aaaaaaaaaargh!) and given the kms I do - I generally prefer a new bike. Because I am a shortarse and Jap bikes are aimed at the mass market, I have had to do some basic mods on the new bikes I've bought (had to shorten the bars on the GS500, had to lower the SV650 and then get the sidestand shortened to fit etc). Being short, perpetually broke, and having not much of a head for figures and bugger all mechanical aptitude (I have lots of GOOD attributes, mind you ;-) I'm not a total twit!) I fling myself on the mercy of aus.motians when I ask this: when the time comes, will I be better off getting a brand new Jap bike and making some essential mods, or should I buy someone else's Euro-bike (coz it's the only way a Euro-bike would be affordable for me) and taking my chances??? All advice gratefully received and thoughtfully considered (unless it's obscene!) ta in advance betty (I like to start thinking about this stuff well in advance...) > I've had 3 bikes in the 3 years of my riding life: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > betty (I like to start thinking about > this stuff well in advance...) There is no simple answer, the only answer to the above is "it depends" !! There are a number of Jap bikes that will fit with minor mods, given the generally cheaper running costs of Japs bikes, a mildly modded one MAY be the go. On the other hand some Euro bikes may fit off the showroom floor. The lighter weight BMWs should be considered ie R850 and the Guzzi knockoff, but also the middle weight japs (such as the Bandit 650 and Z750 and etc). The only thing for sure is that supersports and superbikes (ie R6 R1 etc aren't going to fit without mods, however if you want a supersports try the GSXR it's not too bad, it's 810mm seat and not too wide - a little lowering (5-10mm) would make it quick shortarse friendly - particularly when you consider how damn light it is (prob 20Kg lighter than the SV betty...) Fwiw google (off google groups) the list of suggested bikes for shortarses - I've put my two bobs worth in there many times - but so have others - it's actually got a pretty good list of suggestions As for "I don't need more than 650cc" bollocks you can never be too rich or have too many HP available at the right hand (to misquote JFK's ex) JL In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:00:20 +1100 > and bugger all mechanical aptitude (I have lots of GOOD attributes, mind you > ;-) I'm not a total twit!) I fling myself on the mercy of aus.motians when I > ask this: when the time comes, will I be better off getting a brand new Jap > bike and making some essential mods, or should I buy someone else's > Euro-bike (coz it's the only way a Euro-bike would be affordable for me) and > taking my chances??? Depends... Most eurobikes that are lowish mileage will be fine. THe higher mileage ones will be fine if well looked after which means you ask who worked on it. I suspect that any eurobike under 5 years old will be OK as long as it's not 50,000km and been worked on by a gorilla... Used to be that Guzzis handled any gorilla work, but the newer ones are less agricultural. That said Brevas are fairly hard to mess up as long as you keep oil in them... I'd honestly say that if you bought a Breva with under 30k on it you should be fine as long as you believe that the owner did frequent oil changes. And when you get it, you do that too - you change the oil every 5k (not a difficult job) and it will last you a fair old while. THe other important thing about Guzzis is that you have to give them a decent test ride. A good dealer knows this. You need to ride it for at least an hour, preferably 2. Zebee Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. > Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. True and the 695 (and newer 696) are reasonably priced for Euro bikes. A friend of mine in town here has a 695 (black with red frame) and it's a very nice bike, about the only thing I'd say is that it doesn't have the deep booming sound of the larger V-Twins. G-S >> Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a very nice bike, about the only thing I'd say is that it doesn't have > the deep booming sound of the larger V-Twins. Service costs ? That's a question not a statement. I've not owned a Duc (except the one that blew up a week after I bought it many moons ago) but they do have a reputation for being exxy. JL (I don't think BB does her own servicing) In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:05:59 +1100 >>> Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Service costs ? 4 valves aren't that bad I don't think. Vaguely recall they are about the same as a multi, although that will depend on who you get to do the work.... 8 valves are "if you have to ask you can't afford it" territory especially the faired ones. Zebee >>> Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > JL > (I don't think BB does her own servicing) Nah, I don't. (a) too chicken that I might forget to screw something important back on; (b) girly tools (hammer = something heavy and blunt like half a brick, screwdriver = butterknife - not QUITE that bad, but close - you get the idea) (c) zero understanding of how these things actually work (although I learned a lot about that little fuel thingy from Clem.) One day I will get around to doing one of those bike maintenance courses that CIT run... Would certainly be worth my while, coz I seem to be getting the bike serviced about every 2-3 months - and even on a Jap bike that ends up exxy! betty >>>> Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. >>> True and the 695 (and newer 696) are reasonably priced for Euro bikes. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > betty > Have a good stack !! That taught me a bit about how they work when I had to put bits back on .. :) Probably not the most cost effective option but it's definitely sink or swim ;) At least now I'm not 'scared' about taking bits off / adjusting the chain, that sort of thing. >>>> Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >betty (b) and (c) haven't stopped a lot us in the past... > Nah, I don't. (a) too chicken that I might forget to screw something > important back on; (b) girly tools (hammer = something heavy and blunt [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > getting the bike serviced about every 2-3 months - and even on a Jap bike > that ends up exxy! Sheesh Betty; do you think we all learnt "men-mechanics" in highschool? ('specially that Zebee bloke)! Look at the mechanics you know; are they a half as smart as you?!!? Find yourself a mate who's willing to be your "fullback" and then just try it yourself. Your fullback doesn't need to watch your every move; they just need to be available to answer the stupid questions, advise you about what tools to use and where to get them and, in the event of a f.ck-up, come over and rescue your arse. Get a set of metric ring-spanners (10, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 19mm) and just use logic you can't f.ck anything! It's not that hard when you know you've got backup!  SignatureClem (If you have a problem just ring me... I know BT Humble's number!) In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:18:31 GMT >> Nah, I don't. (a) too chicken that I might forget to screw something >> important back on; (b) girly tools (hammer = something heavy and blunt [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Sheesh Betty; do you think we all learnt "men-mechanics" in highschool? > ('specially that Zebee bloke)! I learned from a friend.... Pretty much he told me what to do and why, and I did it. And then I worked it out on my own with the occasional phone call. Basic work really isn't hard, especially on modern bikes with electronic ignition instead of points. Most of the time all you'll need to do is change the oil frequently (all bikes profit from that) and check the battery water levels, adjust the chain. If you want to play with doing tappets then that's not too hard although I hated doing the bloody Kawasaki because shim under bucket sucks! Zebee > In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:18:31 GMT >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Zebee Will suck up to (I mean, politely ask) some Canberran friends to see who might have time and patience to help me out with a few basic maintenance things. (oh BTH....... petal....... ;-) The things I think I most need to know are: changing oil adjusting chain replacing clutch lever [1] replacing (or fixing) indicator/gear shifter [2] replacing clutch cable betty [1] seeing as it has happened with monotonous regularity and at great expense [2] see [1], although Clem did a beaut job of the gear shifter for me last time and saved me HEAPS, and Rockit snuck out and put a new indicator cover on for me seeing as I hadn't actually snapped the whole bloody indicator off (for a change!) >> In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:18:31 GMT >>>> Nah, I don't. (a) too chicken that I might forget to screw something [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > on for me seeing as I hadn't actually snapped the whole bloody indicator off > (for a change!) Oil was easy enough for me, needed an o-ring (rubber) a new filter and some oil (manual tells you the required type and quantity). Get a container (of larger than the size specified in the manual) under it, run it for a minute to make it "warm" then pop the plug underneath the sump. The reason I suggest a container larger is you will *invariably* drop the bolt into the oil and have to feel around in it for the bolt. You don't want a 'Eureka' moment in the garage with a container of old oil.. I found the chain pretty easy. Loosen the rear axle, mine has bolts to tighten which pull the wheel away from the front, just make sure the indicators are at the same point on both sides then tighten up. If you don't have a torque wrench make sure your next trip's not very far (like up and down the driveway) then check for movement.. I hope my clutch lever's the same as yours .. I need a new one :| I assume the lever itself can be taken out, rather than replacing the entire part (ie the bit that grips the bars..) With my indicator/lights switch block I had to take the bugger apart and solder half of the wires back in .. eww. Fiddly but not 'hard'. Gear shifter .. err .. if you mean replacing the lever .. I just had a hole drilled in mine and a bolt whacked through it. Works fine. Ugly but hey I'm no oil painting either.. Clutch cable I can do. I assume your superbike's different to my el cheapo. Fiddly and frustrating but not 'hard' again. The most important thing to remember is there will be some drag if you're in neutral with the ignition off. I was fooled by that and over-tightened it .. ended up doing about 7K Rpm 10m from the house uphill (doing 20) as the clutch was slipping horribly. Once I realised that, loosened it a little and it's been fine ever since. Basically my cable goes to a block over the top of the motor then attaches to a lever - this is all outside the motor, I presume that is normal but given my limited expertise it may not be :) <big snip> >> Will suck up to (I mean, politely ask) some Canberran friends to see who >> might have time and patience to help me out with a few basic maintenance [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > bolt into the oil and have to feel around in it for the bolt. You don't > want a 'Eureka' moment in the garage with a container of old oil.. I once changed the oil on my GPX, under very close supervision - but it was a long time ago, and my friend kept getting all "thingy" about doing it right - and being a bit nervous about me stuffing up and getting oil on his garage floor, I suppose, he ended up doing most of it himself, while I looked on and thought "but I was supposed to be doing this!" He let me pour the new oil in... > I found the chain pretty easy. Loosen the rear axle, mine has bolts to > tighten which pull the wheel away from the front, just make sure the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > With my indicator/lights switch block I had to take the bugger apart and > solder half of the wires back in .. eww. Fiddly but not 'hard'. That's where it starts getting WAY WAY beyond me. Soldering? I wouldn't want to try and fiddle with anything involving wiring > Gear shifter .. err .. if you mean replacing the lever .. I just had a > hole drilled in mine and a bolt whacked through it. Works fine. Ugly but > hey I'm no oil painting either.. Ooh, that's what Clem did, and it looks like a bought one! Absolutely beautiful! > Clutch cable I can do. I assume your superbike's different to my el > cheapo. Fiddly and frustrating but not 'hard' again. The most important [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the motor then attaches to a lever - this is all outside the motor, I > presume that is normal but given my limited expertise it may not be :) Ta Yeebs, I have always been a bit in awe of how you just jumped in and did stuff to your bike - I am so scared of stuffing it up and making it dangerous (or more broken). Will try to be less sooky <grin>. betty > Ta Yeebs, I have always been a bit in awe of how you just jumped in and > did stuff to your bike - I am so scared of stuffing it up and making it > dangerous (or more broken). Will try to be less sooky <grin>. > > betty I was similarly nervious when fitting Ohlins shocks to my new R1200GSA, tearing apart a brand new motorcycle was very stressful it ended up taking 8 hours to do the job. It was a lot more difficult than you might think. Boxer > It was a lot more difficult than you might think. Less and less people have any interest in working on their bikes, which means there is less and less incentive for manufacturers to make them simple to maintain with basic tools. In fact in order to boost income they sometimes make them deliberately difficult to service without special factory tools or service equipment. Sucks... but what can ya do (well except purchase simpler bikes). G-S In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:45:42 +1100 >> It was a lot more difficult than you might think. > > Less and less people have any interest in working on their bikes, which > means there is less and less incentive for manufacturers to make them > simple to maintain with basic tools. More horses from smaller packages, more equipment... that means the bikes are harder to work on. The Norge is fuel injected so it's harder to work on without expensive kit than a carbed bike is. WIlder cam timing, twin plugs, and it's still a relatively simple bike to get at. I learned on old bangers that were easy to work on (how hard is an RD250 to service?) if I was new to working on bikes now and confronting a fuel injected twinplugged thing covered in fairings I'd think twice. Someone who starts with a GPX would be OK, but a babyblade owner? Zebee > In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:45:42 +1100 >>> It was a lot more difficult than you might think. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Zebee I have a soft spot for the LAMS DR650SE but then it's basically a 20 year old bike that's still being made and one that wasn't exactly state of the art when it was introduced :) G-S > "Yeebok" <yeeb@yeeb.yeeb> wrote in message > Ta Yeebs, I have always been a bit in awe of how you just jumped in and did > stuff to your bike - I am so scared of stuffing it up and making it > dangerous (or more broken). Will try to be less sooky <grin>. > > betty I only had to "jump in and do stuff to poor Fritz" after I "jumped off and /did/ /stuff/ to Fritz" lol! If it's any help I can give completely non-technical descriptions of most parts.. and use suitable terminology like 'thingy' and "wiggly bit". >> "Yeebok" <yeeb@yeeb.yeeb> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If it's any help I can give completely non-technical descriptions of most > parts.. and use suitable terminology like 'thingy' and "wiggly bit". LOL, you speak my language ;-) betty > "Yeebok" <y...@yeeb.yeeb> wrote in message > > If it's any help I can give completely non-technical descriptions of most > > parts.. and use suitable terminology like 'thingy' and "wiggly bit". > > LOL, you speak my language ;-) You have wiggly bits? Theo On Oct 28, 7:20 pm, "bikerbetty" <bikerbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > "Yeebok" <y...@yeeb.yeeb> wrote in message > > If it's any help I can give completely non-technical descriptions of > > most > > parts.. and use suitable terminology like 'thingy' and "wiggly bit". > > LOL, you speak my language ;-) You have wiggly bits? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Theo... maaaate.... let me tell ya! SignatureClem > I found the chain pretty easy. Loosen the rear axle, mine has bolts to > tighten which pull the wheel away from the front, just make sure the > indicators are at the same point on both sides then tighten up. I've yet to work on a bike that had trustworthy measuring marks on the chain adjusters. Use a straight edge on the rear sprocket to check the axle/chain alignment unless you're _certain_ your adjustment marks are accurate (my Ducati is about half an increment out, both my Spadas have been almost a quarter of an increment out). Having said that, alignment isn't _critical_ - a little bit out will just wear the chain and sprockets slightly more quickly, and make the bike turn slightly differently each direction, you'd have to balls it up pretty seriously to make it dangerous. > If you > don't have a torque wrench make sure your next trip's not very far (like > up and down the driveway) then check for movement.. I find some people's reliance on torque wrenches amusing too, I own two of them, but I only consider them "necessary" for cylinder head studs and big end bearing retaining bolts - everything else gets done up "tight enough for it's size" by hand (I will admit to having stripped a few and had a few rattle loose over the years which allowed me to fine tune what "tight enough" felt like). big Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) > I find some people's reliance on torque wrenches amusing too, I own two > of them, but I only consider them "necessary" for cylinder head studs > and big end bearing retaining bolts - everything else gets done up > "tight enough for it's size" by hand (I will admit to having stripped a > few and had a few rattle loose over the years which allowed me to fine > tune what "tight enough" felt like). Totally agree. OTOH, my ex-brother-in-law thought there was a manufacturing problem with the head-bolts on his Marina after he snapped the fourth bolt. Theo >> I found the chain pretty easy. Loosen the rear axle, mine has bolts to >> tighten which pull the wheel away from the front, just make sure the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > big I don't *know* a torque wrench is "required". I don't have one, nor use one - my rear wheel's still attached. As it starts to undo, it clicks/cracks and when I do it back up, I get it to there. As for the actual torque I wind up with, it would be about 90% of what a skinny 60Kg nerd can generate. Someone else can convert that to foot-newtons or whatever they are. If you don't need them both send me one (or Betty :) ) > I don't *know* a torque wrench is "required". I don't have one, nor use > one - my rear wheel's still attached. As it starts to undo, it > clicks/cracks and when I do it back up, I get it to there. Yeah, pretty much. > As for the actual torque I wind up with, it would be about 90% of what a > skinny 60Kg nerd can generate. Someone else can convert that to > foot-newtons or whatever they are. > > If you don't need them both send me one (or Betty :) Get your own. I have two plus a tiny one calibrated in inch-ounces for pose value. Oh, and the micro-adjustable torque screwdriver, but that's only for when people try to upstage you. (No, I didn't buy it. It was a left-over tool from a 14" multi-platter removable hard drive that's been landfill for 25 years). If that fails to impress, I have a fixed-torque 7mm open-end spanner (from a similar source). Theo On Oct 29, 9:41 pm, Yeebok <y...@yeeb.yeeb> wrote: > I don't *know* a torque wrench is "required". I don't have one, nor use > one - my rear wheel's still attached. As it starts to undo, it > clicks/cracks and when I do it back up, I get it to there. Yeah, pretty much. > As for the actual torque I wind up with, it would be about 90% of what a > skinny 60Kg nerd can generate. Someone else can convert that to > foot-newtons or whatever they are. > > If you don't need them both send me one (or Betty :) Get your own. I have two plus a tiny one calibrated in inch-ounces for pose value. Oh, and the micro-adjustable torque screwdriver, but that's only for when people try to upstage you. (No, I didn't buy it. It was a left-over tool from a 14" multi-platter removable hard drive that's been landfill for 25 years). If that fails to impress, I have a fixed-torque 7mm open-end spanner (from a similar source). Theo What no sonic screwdriver? Boxer > "theo" <t...@bekkers.com.au> wrote in message > > if that fails to impress, I have a fixed-torque 7mm open-end spanner > > (from a similar source). > What no sonic screwdriver? Sadly no. I do have a tuning fork that was a tool to tune some part of a computer peripheral. Just what escapes me. Theo >> In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:18:31 GMT >>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >on for me seeing as I hadn't actually snapped the whole bloody indicator off >(for a change!) It would be far cheaper to keep you chained to the kitchen sink and near the fridge~ Johno <in hiding> get us a beer woman!! > replacing clutch lever [1] > replacing (or fixing) indicator/gear shifter [2] > replacing clutch cable Much as I think it's a sacrielige to replace that gear-lever (and WELL DONE to Rockit for the indicator-lens too!) if you punch "sv650 lever" into EBay it brings up a heap of hits. Most are overseas but even with postage it may be worth it. Good luck SignatureClem >> replacing clutch lever [1] >> replacing (or fixing) indicator/gear shifter [2] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Most are overseas but even with postage it may be worth it. > Good luck Clem, there's no way in the world i would replace that fabulous work of art unless I absolutely had to! Might try and just get a spare to carry around Justin Case! betty > Will suck up to (I mean, politely ask) some Canberran friends to see who > might have time and patience to help me out with a few basic maintenance > things. (oh BTH....... petal....... ;-) He's a good man, and thorough. -----sharks (it's okay Betty, in-joke) > > Will suck up to (I mean, politely ask) some Canberran friends to see who > > might have time and patience to help me out with a few basic maintenance [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -----sharks (it's okay Betty, in-joke) "Mr Lebowski, please turn onto your side..." BTH (Happy to help out any time Betty, although I'm going to be a bit busy for the next few weeks dealing with my particular aspect of Mr Rudd's piss-up-the-wall-money initiative.) > The things I think I most need to know are: > > changing oil Unscrew the plug on the bottom, let it run out, screw the plug back in, fill it at the top. It's not rocket science Betty. > adjusting chain What is that? > replacing clutch lever [1] Pretty simple, they just have one bolt. Give it a go. > replacing (or fixing) indicator/gear shifter [2] You may need to offer some-one a beer fot this information. > replacing clutch cable Sorry, I don't have one of those either. Theo >> The things I think I most need to know are: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is that? the bit that connects the engine to the gearbox :) Nev.. '07 XB12X >>> The things I think I most need to know are: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > the bit that connects the engine to the gearbox :) "But that's not important now..." SignatureClem > >> The things I think I most need to know are: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > the bit that connects the engine to the gearbox :) Huh? Nah, that's a shaft and a dry clutch. Theo On Oct 28, 3:34 pm, "bikerbetty" <bikerbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > The things I think I most need to know are: > > changing oil Unscrew the plug on the bottom, let it run out, screw the plug back in, fill it at the top. It's not rocket science Betty. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I missed step three at least once and had to watch my nice new 20W-50 run out over the road (and my toes) and know that I had to catch the bus to the auto-store to buy more!! SignatureClem (You've gotta' get past rocks before you get to rocket-science!) > (You've gotta' get past rocks before you get to rocket-science!) Clem. rocket-science consists mostly of "light blue touch-paper and stand well back". Theo > Get a set of metric ring-spanners (10, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 19mm) and just use > logic you can't f.ck anything! > It's not that hard when you know you've got backup! > > Clem > (If you have a problem just ring me... I know BT Humble's number!) and BTH knows a wrecker.. Nev.. '07 XB12X >>> Get a Monster. They survive being dropped quite well, and are low. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that blew up a week after I bought it many moons ago) but they do have a > reputation for being exxy. It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't exxy. He says it costs about the same to service as his previous bike (a CBR1100XX) but the other running costs (tyres, chains, sprockets) are less. It isn't a coffee bike he does decent distance on it (ok not quite bigian ducati distance) and it hasn't given him any trouble. The new 696 is more powerful and I gather the service intervals are further apart, but to be honest I prefer the look of the 695. G-S > It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't exxy. Round figures, a 10,000 or 12,000 km service is going to cost ~$800 at a dealer, a 20,000/24,000km service is a couple of hundred more (they change the cam belts at this service). From what I gather that's still pretty close to twice what you'll pay for doing the scheduled services at a dealer for a Japanese 600 or 1000 sized bike. > The new 696 is more powerful and I gather the service intervals are > further apart, but to be honest I prefer the look of the 695. The service intervals went up to 12,000/24,000 back when the 695 was still out in '07, and from first reports they are charging the same sort of price for those slightly-further-apart services. That still makes them significantly more expensive to maintain than a comparable Japanese bike (unless you do it yourself). Ducati are using some Standards & Poor approved reporting practices when the claim "50% less maintenance costs"[1], the only way I can understand that being true enough to adverstise with is if they artificially set the measurement as "cost to 22,000km", where the older bikes have just had their major service done and the newer bikes are almost due for it. Cynical-Big suspects they're measuring "service costs to the typical end of the warranty period, after which we don't give a sh.t about the customer anymore, so who cares what lies we tell them..." I love my Ducati, but don't fall for Ducati's "honest, we're as cheap to run a a CBRGXR6RR now!" big [1] http://www.ducati.com.au/08/service.php?id=Maintenance.php Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) >> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't >> exxy. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pretty close to twice what you'll pay for doing the scheduled services > at a dealer for a Japanese 600 or 1000 sized bike. That's enough to put me off..... Thanks Big - this is the nitty-gritty stuff I need to hear, coz unfortunately a lot of it comes down to dollars. It's useful to be able to rein in my fantasies so that when the time comes to look for my next ride, I can be realistic (of course, if the Lotto Fairies visit, all bets are off!) ta betty >> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't exxy. > > Round figures, a 10,000 or 12,000 km service is going to cost ~$800 at a > dealer, a 20,000/24,000km service is a couple of hundred more. I rang him and asked him what his last service cost. He said $600. Maybe big city prices are more expensive? G-S In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:14:18 +1100 >> Round figures, a 10,000 or 12,000 km service is going to cost ~$800 at a >> dealer, a 20,000/24,000km service is a couple of hundred more. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Maybe big city prices are more expensive? Sydney's always more expensive. Still more expensive for a major service than my Guzzi. Major on that's about $450 in Sydney. Zebee > >> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't > >> exxy. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Maybe big city prices are more expensive? For sure, and I was also quoting "Ducati Dealer" pricing - I wouldn't _ever_ pay that. If you're in Sydney, Gowanlochs will give you _much_ better pricing than that, and they're also perfectly happy to only do the valve clearance checks and let you do the oil change bit yourself instead of paying workshop rates for them to do it. Last time I heard, Mike was quoting $350 to check and adjust the valves and belt tension (this was a few years back now though, so don't go to hoim insisting that "Big said you'd do it for $350", OK?). Big Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) >> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't exxy. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pretty close to twice what you'll pay for doing the scheduled services > at a dealer for a Japanese 600 or 1000 sized bike. Mmm that's not double my service costs but it's a good way towards it. IIRC (without getting out the logbook) I paid $1100 for the 12000Km service including a dyno tune(~$400), new chain and sprockets($150 ?) (they ship with ones made of cheese from the factory - apparently I was lucky to get that far) and a set of K&N filters(errm NFI - $100?) in addition to the standard service cost. The only difference between that service and the 24K is checking the timing chain tension and tappet clearance. JL >>> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't >>> exxy. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > JL Are you sure about putting K & N filters on it, I have seen a number of BMW engines distroyed using these, they let in lost of fine dust particles and can really stuff your engine. Boxer > Are you sure about putting K & N filters on it, I have seen a number of BMW > engines distroyed using these, they let in lost of fine dust particles and > can really stuff your engine. Interestingly enough, I'm having this same discussion elsewhere right now. Here's a test which concludes that a K&N filter captures _more_ dirt that a paper filter: http://www.ducatigarage.netfirms.com/filtertest.html My "anecdote not evidence" on this issue is that my Monster has had a K&N filter in it since the 20,000km service, and it's now got ~210,000km on it without any signs of undue wear attributable to the air filter (and it was opened up at around 75,000km for other reasons, and the top end and bores were all perfect). You might be able to shed some light on something else though John, do any of the newer BMW's run hot-wire MAF sensors in the intakes as part of their fuel injection? There's a suggestion that they might, in which case oiled foam or cotton airfilters could well contaminate those sensors. big Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) >> Are you sure about putting K & N filters on it, I have seen a number of >> BMW [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > big I think the new Oilheads do run a MAF sensor, however I think the air cleaner issue may have more to do with the type of roads/tracks that you ride on, I have seen K & N filter equipped R1100S bores badly scored whilst similar bikes running stock BMW filters undamages given similar useage (including a lot of rally work). I use my older airhead GS for the tough work whilst the 1200GSA is restricted to light touring duties. the older airhad is much cheaper to service and fix in the event of damage. Boxer > however I think the air > cleaner issue may have more to do with the type of roads/tracks that you > ride on, I have seen K & N filter equipped R1100S bores badly scored whilst > similar bikes running stock BMW filters undamages given similar useage > (including a lot of rally work). Hmmm, I don't go out looking for dirt every weekend on the Monster, but I'm certainly not scared off by it. I'm not one to avoid an interesting looking route just because it's got 50 or 100km of dirt on it (most of my riding companions will do their best to talk be out of it though...) I wonder if the nikasil bores on the Ducati cope better with whatever does get through the K&N filters? The test linked to above certainly seems to indicate the K&N filter my Ducati uses traps _more_ dirt that the equivalent paper filter, though the picture I've seen of a BMW paper filter show it to be 2 or 3 times as deep as the stock paper one, perhaps that's because the BMW paper filter is finer than the Ducati one, which is why it needs to be bigger surface areawise to flow the same volume of air while filtering finer particles out? big Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) >> however I think the air >> cleaner issue may have more to do with the type of roads/tracks that you [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > big BMW's have been running nikasil bores since 1981 so that can not be the problem, from what I understand a K & N might filter well when newly installed but its performance may degrade over time, I am not one to need the extra HP that a K & N produces and all of my bikes run standard exhausts too so I would never consider an aftermarket filter. Boxer > I am not one to need the extra HP that a K & N produces Neither am I, but the K&N was ~$10 _cheaper_ than a OEM Ducati paper filter, and only need regular cleaning and re-oiling, not replacing again every 10 or 20,000km @ $130 a time... big (besides, I'd have to give money to *spit* Frasers for an OEM filter) Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) >> I am not one to need the extra HP that a K & N produces > > Neither am I, Well I'd like to think I am ! And anyone who wants to burst my bubble can go stand in the far queue. >but the K&N was ~$10 _cheaper_ than a OEM Ducati paper > filter, and only need regular cleaning and re-oiling, not replacing > again every 10 or 20,000km @ $130 a time... Only $10 cheaper - it was $60 cheaper than the genuine alternative for me > big (besides, I'd have to give money to *spit* Frasers for an OEM filter) Well I don't have a philosophical issue with giving Feeney's my money as such, the issue for me is always the fact that I'd like the parts THIS decade. So I prefer to buy the things that are actually immediately available which coincidentally never seem to be the genuine Cagiva/MV stuff for some reason. JL (no I'm sorry I won't wait 4 months for a fuckin' air filter OK - the TL one will fit just fine) >>> Are you sure about putting K & N filters on it, I have seen a number of >>> BMW [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > cleaner issue may have more to do with the type of roads/tracks that you > ride on, I suspect that you actually have to go somewhere in the proximity of dirt to have this issue. I personally avoid it like the plague on the raptor. If I want to go riding on dirt roads I'll buy an appropriate bike for the job. JL > "jl" <not-here@nowhere.com> wrote in message > Are you sure about putting K & N filters on it, I have seen a number of BMW > engines distroyed using these, they let in lost of fine dust particles and > can really stuff your engine. To be honest no, I understand the concern but I have no data either way. Decision was made chasing HP. JL > >> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't > >> exxy. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > service and the 24K is checking the timing chain tension and tappet > clearance. Errrmmm, so taking $650 off (400+150+100), you paid ~$450 for a service, and they _didn't_ check the valve clearances? My (quite probably miscalibrated) gut feel says 3 or 4 hundred for a typical "oil change plus valve clearance check" on a 4 cylinder 16 valve japanese sportsbike, at 10 or 12,000 km intervals. I'd expect a little more for your bike since on a v twin they need to get into two separate heads to check things (and I'd hope, but probably be disappointed, that the lack of fairings would make up for that). Even so, 24,000km worth of (new) Ducati scheduled services will cost ~$1800 ($800@12k + $1000@24k), 24,000km on your costs comes to twice $450 plus the extra time to check the timing chain tension (possibly plus valve clearance checks, if they really didn't do them at your $450 12,000km service). Looks pretty close to "double" to me (unless you too are paying an "Italian" tax and you're being ripped off with a $450 oil change and you've got a few hundred extra bucks worth of labour to add on top of that expensive oil change next time as well). big Signature"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) >>>> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't >>>> exxy. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > heads to check things (and I'd hope, but probably be disappointed, that > the lack of fairings would make up for that). Mmm yeah that's about it, probably with Italian bike tax and the "sh.t I have to read the service manual you so kindly provided because I've never worked on one of these before" tax which is a double count but you get that. No the lack of fairings don't actually improve the access to anything, and the service list for the $450 is supposedly: - oil & filter - throttle control (wtf ? it's electronic TPS either works or not) - plugs - secondary drive chain check tension and lube -check steering bearings - check tyres (good grief I really should have read this before I paid people to do it) - brakes - fluid and check pad wear / replace if req. - replace air filter - check discs - throttle timing (eh ? wot's that then ?) - check sprockets and chain - check clutch (wtf ?) - brake lines - "tighten nuts and bolts" (yeah I bet that got done) - tighten clutch cover screws(as above) - idle speed -radiator hoses - check rear suspension (wtf ^2) - renew fork oil (12K or 2yrs - ROTFLMAO yeah right - not unless you stand over 'em and watch) > Even so, 24,000km worth of (new) Ducati scheduled services will cost > ~$1800 ($800@12k + $1000@24k), 24,000km on your costs comes to twice [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you've got a few hundred extra bucks worth of labour to add on top of > that expensive oil change next time as well). Plus or minus it's double - but sure as eggs if I claimed it I'd have found out all the things I missed ;-) Either way, it's definitely cheaper !! JL (now it's out of warranty I suspect I'll do the next service myself, depends on how lazy I feel) In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:43:11 +1100 >> It's 2 valve and air cooled so by Ducati standards the servicing isn't exxy. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pretty close to twice what you'll pay for doing the scheduled services > at a dealer for a Japanese 600 or 1000 sized bike. Resurrecting this, because I just had the first really major service on the Norge at 20k. This is the one where you are supposed to replace the inner spark plugs and check the alternator belt tension. $585 for all oils (I didn't bother getting the brake or clutch fluid done, it's only 18 months old),filters, valves, usual check of all pads, bearings, and bolts, and $55 each for those bloody plugs! The outers are your bog standard BP6 that Guzzi have been using since the V7 Special, but the inners are these tiny iridium whatsits that apparently can retail for around $75 each. A tricky job he said as the ABS lines are in the way so he had to make up a special tool to get to the little buggers. (First Norge he'd done, Brevas don't have the ABS.) So if a 10,000 on a 2 valve Ducati is $800, looks like a 20k on a Norge is a bargain! And given the 750 Breva doesn't have ABS or 4 plugs, a major on that should be in the $400 range. No idea what it costs to replace the alternator belt but Roper says the one on his Griso was tight and in perfect nick after 35k so I probably won't find out for a while. There are times I miss the Infamous MZ where maintenance consisted of giving it a new sparkplug for Christmas and promising it you'd do the points. Zebee <snip> > Resurrecting this, because I just had the first really major service > on the Norge at 20k. <snip> Should anyone in the Sydney area be interested in a very clean, straight, Norge with lotsa fruit (dunno if it has all of it) Procycles at Hornsby have one in their upstairs showroom. I didn't ask the price 'cos it's too big for me, but they might be almost reasonable (for a dealer) since it sortof sticks out like a sore thumb amongst their BMs and Triumphs. regards, CrazyCam > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > straight, Norge with lotsa fruit (dunno if it has all of it) Procycles > at Hornsby have one in their upstairs showroom. It's not on their bikepoint second hand bikes for sale website... do you know if it's only just arrived? G-S >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It's not on their bikepoint second hand bikes for sale website... do you > know if it's only just arrived? I knew it wasn't on their web site, Geoff, and I assumed it to be a recent trade in. Have you some interest in it? If so, I could probably make a point of having a closer sticky beak at it and establish what they are asking for it. regards, CrazyCam >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > having a closer sticky beak at it and establish what they are asking for > it. Strangely enough, there is a Guzzi, which looks very like the one I saw, but listed at Procycles St.Peters, on their web site. http://www.procycles.com.au/bikes/used/stpeters/ regards, CrazyCam >>>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > regards, > CrazyCam Looks a lot like a Honda ST1100. Boxer > Strangely enough, there is a Guzzi, which looks very like the one I saw, > but listed at Procycles St.Peters, on their web site. > http://www.procycles.com.au/bikes/used/stpeters/ Thanks for the link Cam. I'm looking for a red one though (ok I admit I'm being fussy). G-S >> Strangely enough, there is a Guzzi, which looks very like the one I >> saw, but listed at Procycles St.Peters, on their web site. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm looking for a red one though (ok I admit I'm being fussy). Couldn't you Photoshop it? :-) regards, CrazyCam >>> Strangely enough, there is a Guzzi, which looks very like the one I >>> saw, but listed at Procycles St.Peters, on their web site. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > regards, > CrazyCam Then it would be pink? Johno Coopers mate? >>>> Strangely enough, there is a Guzzi, which looks very like the one I >>>> saw, but listed at Procycles St.Peters, on their web site. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Coopers mate? Nuclear red Johno! G-S Zebee Johnstone wrote... > The outers are your bog standard BP6 that Guzzi have been using since > the V7 Special, but the inners are these tiny iridium whatsits that > apparently can retail for around $75 each. When I owned a Camry (don't larf) it had those you beaut plugs in it. Cost around $80 a piece at the time. However, they were s'posed to last over 100,000km. Why are yours being replaced at 20,000 km, which is about standard for normal plugs? SignatureThose are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. >Zebee Johnstone wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >100,000km. Why are yours being replaced at 20,000 km, which is about standard >for normal plugs? Good question... is the same with the bitsashitty magna, the back 3 cylinders (next to the firewall) were the u-beaut plugs with a 100,000 k replacement schedule. johno <pleese expline Zebs> Coopers mate? >> Zebee Johnstone wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > johno <pleese expline Zebs> Simplest explanation is that the manual has a missprint, and the outer plugs are the ones due to be changed, not the inners. regards, CrazyCam >>Zebee Johnstone wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Coopers mate? Depends. I had to use iridium plugs in my Lancer GSR Turbo. But they would barely last 5000km. Standard plugs would break down around 2000km. > Zebee Johnstone wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > standard > for normal plugs? My late model BMW's have those plugs, scheduled replacement 100,000 kilometres. Boxer In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:28:49 +1100 > Zebee Johnstone wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 100,000km. Why are yours being replaced at 20,000 km, which is about standard > for normal plugs? I figure that given the wear on them, they won't need to be done at the next 20 even though the manual does say they should be. THey will have to be looked at, but probably not replaced. I could have said "don't replace" but while it's under warranty it gets warranty level service. Zebee > .... and $55 each for those bloody plugs! I ordered the bits for the Trump reassembly and decided to get the you-beaut iridium plugs. Jack Lilley's quoted £7.65 but at 2.3 dollars to the pound I figured I MUST be able to get them cheaper locally..... ...not a CHANCE!! I received them in the post today; 8 days after I ordered them. SignatureClem > I ordered the bits for the Trump reassembly and decided to get the you-beaut > iridium plugs. > Jack Lilley's quoted £7.65 but at 2.3 dollars to the pound I figured I MUST > be able to get them cheaper locally..... > ...not a CHANCE!! > I received them in the post today; 8 days after I ordered them. I've still yet to order all the engine bits and tools for mine. Glad I got a lot of stuff last year though. SignatureToosmoky Work to ride, Ride to Work... http://users.tpg.com.au/smokey61 >> I ordered the bits for the Trump reassembly and decided to get the >> you-beaut iridium plugs. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I've still yet to order all the engine bits and tools for mine. Glad I > got a lot of stuff last year though. I'm glad I bought an American bike and all the accessories that I needed for it from the USA when the dollar was almost parity. Nev.. '07 XB12X >That's a question not a statement. I've not owned a Duc (except the one >that blew up a week after I bought it many moons ago) ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! GOLD! >> That's a question not a statement. I've not owned a Duc (except the one >> that blew up a week after I bought it many moons ago) > ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! GOLD! sh.t that's gotta be at least the third time I've mentioned that in passing - you don't pay attention much do you ? JL (wouldn't stop me buying a Ducati now though - I think they're a wee bit different build quality to the late 70's early 80's now) >>> That's a question not a statement. I've not owned a Duc (except the >>> one that blew up a week after I bought it many moons ago) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (wouldn't stop me buying a Ducati now though - I think they're a wee bit > different build quality to the late 70's early 80's now) It wasn't a 500 parallel twin was it? G-S >>>> That's a question not a statement. I've not owned a Duc (except the >>>> one that blew up a week after I bought it many moons ago) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It wasn't a 500 parallel twin was it? Nope it was an 860 twin JL I think, it's a very brief hazy memory now > ( I think they're a wee bit > different build quality to the late 70's early 80's now) Unlike Biggus. Moike > (I don't think BB does her own servicing) >? And this is a MAJOR point! This is the difference between "It was very reliable; in the whole time I had it it only needed starter-motor brushes, forkseals and the occasional clean of the switch-contacts..." and "what an unreliable piece of sh.t; it spent half its time in the workshop with electrical problems and suspension problems and the number of times I had to pay towing fees.....!") Makes for a very different "experience"! SignatureClem <snip> > Being short, perpetually broke, and having not much of a head for figures > and bugger all mechanical aptitude (I have lots of GOOD attributes, mind [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > else's Euro-bike (coz it's the only way a Euro-bike would be affordable > for me) and taking my chances??? How 'bout something that's almost European, but not quite... And much more agricultural than practically any other bike on the road? http://www.ural.com.au/models.html Eh, comrade? ;-) SignatureBob Milutinovic Cognicom - "Australia's Web Presence Specialists" http://www.cognicom.net.au/ telephone (0417) 45-77-66 facsimile (02) 9824-2240 > <snip> >> Being short, perpetually broke, and having not much of a head for figures [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Eh, comrade? ;-) No problems with seat height, Betty, and you can't drop it! http://www.ural.com.au/workhorse.html (but I suppose you *could* fall under it if you tried hard enough.... Moike > > <snip> > >> Being short, perpetually broke, and having not much of a head for figures [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > No problems with seat height, Betty, and you can't drop it!http://www.ural.com.au/workhorse.html > (but I suppose you *could* fall under it if you tried hard enough.... Am I seeing things or is does the throttle cable cross the front guard in front of the headlight? Theo >>> <snip> >>>> Being short, perpetually broke, and having not much of a head for figures [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Theo yeah, so? Its a Ural. Moike (who was almost tempted in the 70s when they had a $350 350cc bike, and a $650 650cc bike.) whats wrong with the SV? or is it bent again? Why not go with a Cruiser, they are all low and high bars.. > whats wrong with the SV? or is it bent again? > > Why not go with a Cruiser, they are all low and high bars.. Nah, the SV's lovely - just got the bent bits fixed on Friday... betty then why are you getting rid of it? >Nah, the SV's lovely - just got the bent bits fixed on Friday... > >betty I'm not - just thinking ahead is all > then why are you getting rid of it? >>Nah, the SV's lovely - just got the bent bits fixed on Friday... >> >>betty >I've had 3 bikes in the 3 years of my riding life: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >betty (I like to start thinking about >this stuff well in advance...) I think you have to go with you heart. A friend of mine used to ride a YZF1000R but she had real problems when she pulled up as she was so short. She only rode it out of town (well, OK she had to get it out of town) but if there were any awkward parking areas she would be in real difficulties. But she loved the bike. While it was in motion she was fine. It was just the stopping bit that was a drama. But your question regarding Euro bikes, I'd take Zebee's advice on board. She's a short-arse too and has been there and done that. I've never had that problem so my advice will only be second-hand. > I've had 3 bikes in the 3 years of my riding life: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > betty (I like to start thinking about > this stuff well in advance...) If you get a nice discrete tatoo you may consider a Harley 883 sportster they come in "Custom" or "Low" which is quite low and "Standard" my preferance. Or a 2nd hand 1200 normal style, ie not as cruiser like These bikes have been around since the dawn of time and are cheap to run, reliable and in my opinion most attractive in a real motorcycle kind of way. No pansy fairings just a solid motor and a couple of wheels. I have a 1200 sport 2003 which can be ridden enthusiastically, has enough power and ground clearance for most occasions at least untill you want to chase Ducatis on a mountain road. It lacks the rubber mounting of the post 04 models but I've ridden both and dont find the vibes intrusive on mine. 883s are smoother still. If fact I found the rubber 1200 Roadster a little sterile. The "custom " models leave me a little cold, not in the sportster vein I feel, but they're by far the most popular versions today. An 883 standard for around $13000 new while a touch asmathic can easilly be converted to 1200, a common mod, after you get the urge. Sometimes it's good to be bad, just a thought. Capt A. L. >> I've had 3 bikes in the 3 years of my riding life: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >they come in "Custom" or "Low" which is quite low and "Standard" my >preferance. What? You haven't seen the one on her B..... oh never mind. Johno Beer? <snip> >>>I fling myself on the mercy of aus.motians >>> when I ask this: when the time comes, will I be better off getting a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Beer? Geez, Johno! <wallop> I keep telling you it wasn't a tatt, it was a bruise! betty In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:13:55 +1000 > 04 models but I've ridden both and dont find the vibes intrusive on mine. > 883s are smoother still. If fact I found the rubber 1200 Roadster a little > sterile. The "custom " models leave me a little cold, not in the sportster > vein I feel, but they're by far the most popular versions today. An 883 > standard for around $13000 new while a touch asmathic can easilly be > converted to 1200, a common mod, after you get the urge. Else you could get a Nevada and have more horses plus keep up with the Ducatis! (And not feel that asthmatic either, it's quite a nippy little thing. Don't need to spend heaps on aftermarket gear either. The small blocks are revhounds, wring its neck and it boogies. Those who think smallblocks are slow have never tried to keep up with Hendrik's Monza.) > Sometimes it's good to be bad, just a thought. The days of HD bei |
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