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Motorcycle Forum / General / Motorcycles / August 2007THP hassle on the Dragon
It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled "Tennessee Dragon Slayers" about police harassment by the THP. Sean_Q_ :It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". :There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled :"Tennessee Dragon Slayers" about police harassment by the THP. : :Sean_Q_ There's one of Freerepublic as well. It looks like somebody complained to the cops. Oh well... They will be gone in a couple of months. There are no doughnut shops near the dragon. -- >:It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". >:There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >complained to the cops. Oh well... They will be gone in a couple of >months. There are no doughnut shops near the dragon. Maybe they heard about people doing doughnuts in the parking lot ?  SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ > :It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". > :There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > complained to the cops. Oh well... They will be gone in a couple of > months. There are no doughnut shops near the dragon. I was going to suggest Jack could make a few bucks off one but then decided it might hurt his campground venture. Robert >I was going to suggest Jack could make a few bucks off one but then >decided it might hurt his campground venture. We had two campers here over the weekend from Va Tech. They went to the Gap on Saturday and reported seeing more than 10 THP cars. This was on the second weekend of the crackdown. Other than that, I see no difference in campground traffic. The Gap is 11 miles out of the hundreds and hundreds of good motorcycle roads around here. -- Jack > It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". > There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled > "Tennessee Dragon Slayers" about police harassment by the THP. > > Sean_Q_ Road up there last may 06...never saw a cop...problem was all the rice rockets running you off the road... >> It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". >> There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Road up there last may 06...never saw a cop...problem was all the rice rockets > running you off the road... Odd whilst I've never ridden the Dragon every sportbike hot road I've been on they didn't "run be off the road" and the few that tried to bomb me on a corner thinking they were hot sh.t found they weren't so hot and that some mean old man on slow old bike stole their corner. 8^) I ride my line and I don't share...my line is my line and your line is not my line. They went inside and couldn't make it. They go outside and can't make it...I just ride the smartest SAFEST line for a short, old, fat(sort of) guy on a OGL1K. You just have to be able to RIDE the f.cking motorcycle. My OGL1L IS a rice rocket and not some POS harley ridden poorly by someone who isn't good just lucky. Late braking is FUN...and it's okay to only think of using the rear brake to assist stability. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. >>> It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". >>> There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > isn't good just lucky. Late braking is FUN...and it's okay to only think of > using the rear brake to assist stability. POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race from one end to the other and then back again. Go ride it then get back with me. >>>> It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". >>>> There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race from one end > to the other and then back again. Go ride it then get back with me. Please note I wasn't referring to YOUR motorcycle. Sounds like a fun road and the MANY pictures I've seen over the years indicate that for me it's an easy ride. The big problem is that it is on the wrong side of the Mississippi and thus too close to DC...a city that I'll NEVER go to again. Congressional subpoena? Wont go...not even for the Supremes. ;^) Not to fond of anything west of the Rockies either. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. >>>>> It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". >>>>> There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > subpoena? Wont go...not even for the Supremes. ;^) Not to fond of anything west > of the Rockies either. I agree with your view of D.C. As for the dragon, there are many other roads much better than it, Cherhola? highway being one. >>>>>> It looks like the Deal's Gap road (Hwy 129) has been "discovered". >>>>>> There's a thread going on right now on RMH titled [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I agree with your view of D.C. As for the dragon, there are many other roads > much better than it, Cherhola? highway being one. whoops! Forgot to reply. Yes the Cherhola is nice from what I've been told. Problem is, it to is east of the mighty mo. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. > Sounds like a fun road and the MANY pictures I've seen > over the years indicate that for me it's an easy ride. I rode it a couple of years ago on an ST1100. Fun, yes. Easy ride, NFW. >> Sounds like a fun road and the MANY pictures I've seen >> over the years indicate that for me it's an easy ride. > > I rode it a couple of years ago on an ST1100. > Fun, yes. Easy ride, NFW. Well on an ST1100 that is top heavy compared to a GL1000 that practically drags a 400 lb motor on the ground. ;^) SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. > POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a > very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race from > one end to the other and then back again. Go ride it then get back with > me. I rode the Dragon very recently during the THP crackdown. We were enjoying lunch at Deals Gap Resort between runs when 3 Harleys went past, making more noise than a B-52 at takeoff. The comments, even by HD riders was amusing. I am sure the THP burned them good...they were ticketing for every infraction they could think of, including noise. >> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a very >> narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race from one end [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > am sure the THP burned them good...they were ticketing for every infraction > they could think of, including noise. I didn't know that riding while a conservative/liberal was a traffic offence. Yet another reason to never go there. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. >>> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a >>> very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I didn't know that riding while a conservative/liberal was a traffic > offence. Yet another reason to never go there. It was scary how high the LEO presence was and the level of BS infractions. > >>> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a > >>> very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It was scary how high the LEO presence was and the level of BS infractions. Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving lives" are BS. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. > Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky > Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving > lives" are BS. Perhaps not. I wonder if any credible study exists that shows handing out tickets saves lives. I would be curious to know if the revenue exceeds the administrative costs. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >Perhaps not. I wonder if any credible study exists that shows handing >out tickets saves lives. Making a statistical study of deaths that never occurred would be hard to accomplish. What else could traffic engineers do, survey riders and ask them if they slowed down after getting a ticket and try to determine the veracity of the claim? After a rash of fatal accidents on local mountain roads, the California Highway Patrol authorized overtime for special enforcement activities and the roads were crawling with CHP cruisers. I just changed the days that I went sportriding. The highway patrol does its special enforcements on weekends, so intelligent sportriders started riding on Mondays or Fridays. Legislation and law enforcement is reactive. If there was no problem, your state senators wouldn't enact a law against speeding. There's no law against killing yourself while pursuing the goal of becoming part of some nebulous community of stunters and Ricky Racers who terrorize residents and commuters on twisty roads while practicing their riding "skillz". After numerous accidents and deaths, law enforcement representatives meet with stakeholder and residents in the problem area and discuss their complaints and the solutions. Then the budget for the activity has to be approved. Local courts fine the offenders and a penalty assessment is tacked onto the fine and the state gets that, so the special enforcements are partially paid for by the offender and partly by the taxpayer, who already knows that law enforcement isn't free. Massive law enforcement in the Santa Monica mountains above Malibu was aimed at stopping sportriders from racing up and down two roads. Property owners were annoyed by the continuous noise of exhaust pipes and the dangerous antics of the Ricky Racers. The name for the special operation was "Iron Horse" at one time. Law enforcement hoped to stop the speeding and reckless driving by citing and/or impounding the scofflaws' uninsured or unregistered motorcycles. Top of Stunt Road where the Ricky Racers gather: http://www.wrenchwhore.com/chp/pictures/MVC-132F.jpg Scenic overlook where the Ricky Racers gather: http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee9cd1c The writer of that particular blog was complaining about being stopped for riding at legal speeds through the special enforcement zone. My question to him would be, "What the heck are you doing in a mountain recreation area on your motorcycle? Why aren't you off on a trail, hiking or mountain biking and getting down with nature?" > The writer of that particular blog was complaining about being stopped for > riding at legal speeds through the special enforcement zone. My question to > him would be, "What the heck are you doing in a mountain recreation area on > your motorcycle? Why aren't you off on a trail, hiking or mountain biking and > getting down with nature?" Perhaps he lives in the area? Perhaps he has the *right* to ride at legal speeds trough the enforcement area? (Heh. Get a BMW R1100RT and make it perfect from a legal point of view. Get an Aerostich and a white full-face helmet. Then ride that road at perfectly legal speeds. I bet the cops will leave you alone. Might be fun to try with an R1100RT-P.) SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. >> The writer of that particular blog was complaining about being stopped for >> riding at legal speeds through the special enforcement zone. >Perhaps he lives in the area? He doesn't even live in Los Angeles County. But he believes he has a right to test his motorcycle's performance and handling on public highways. That's why he was stopped. The CHP was watching him from The Balcony at the top of The Snake. >Perhaps he has the *right* to ride at legal speeds trough the enforcement >area? Landowners and stakeholders have the right to use Mulholland Highway to access their property or business. Just passing through is a privilege for others, as long as their vehicles are registered and insured and they have the correct operator's license. Obviously, I am not a libertarian, I am a statist and I beieve that the state has the power to regulate the behavior of the citizens and that such power was granted to the state by the citizens who have the right to contact their elected representative if they need to complain about what the state officials are doing. >(Heh. Get a BMW R1100RT and >make it perfect from a legal point of view. Get an Aerostich and a white >full-face helmet. Then ride that road at perfectly legal speeds. I bet >the cops will leave you alone. Might be fun to try with an R1100RT-P.) Yes, the CHP's will probably leave law abiding riders alone. The stuntas and Ricky Racers get noticed because they ride in packs, disobeying laws because they believe that their group is a law unto itself, and that whatever foolishness they have seen in videos is what motorcycle riding is all about. I realized early on that most riders had lost focus on motorcycles as stylish transportation to take them to destinations where they could enjoy other leisure activities and sports. Instead, the riders I met would want to ride the same short distance every Sunday and hang around some road house or store before riding back home to watch TV or pick up the wife and take her to the mall. The motorcycle magazines wrote about the various classic hangouts and favorite roads (aka "racer roads") and the old timers at the hangouts were flooded with thousands of of wannabe racers and posers. I "discovered" The Rock Store and the hard core bikers there in 1971. Other riders tell me that the CHP and Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department were already trying to get rid of The Rock Store crowd as early as 1968, but they couldn't ticket anybody on the property because Ed insisted that the riders were his "guests". Anyway, all this "special enforcement" is nothing new. When a problem with Ricky Racers and stuntas pops up, the law enforcement agencies will smack it down. > Obviously, I am not a libertarian, I am a statist and I beieve that the state > has the power to regulate the behavior of the citizens and that such power > was granted to the state by the citizens who have the right to contact their > elected representative if they need to complain about what the state > officials are doing. What you believe is irrelevent. States have a constitution or similar document which spells out the contract between the citizens and the state. The state has no powers beyond what is specified in that document. > I realized early on that most riders had lost focus on motorcycles as stylish > transportation to take them to destinations where they could enjoy other [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sunday and hang around some road house or store before riding back home to > watch TV or pick up the wife and take her to the mall. Is there really something wrong with riding for the sake of riding? > The motorcycle magazines wrote about the various classic hangouts and > favorite roads (aka "racer roads") and the old timers at the hangouts were > flooded with thousands of of wannabe racers and posers. You mean roads that are fun to ride on? Like roads that are fun to take a sunday drive on? > I "discovered" The Rock Store and the hard core bikers there in 1971. Other > riders tell me that the CHP and Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department were > already trying to get rid of The Rock Store crowd as early as 1968, but they > couldn't ticket anybody on the property because Ed insisted that the riders > were his "guests". Ah, a place where people with a mutual interest can hang out, grab a bite, and talk about their mutual interests. And the owner has the gall to protect his patrons from police harassment. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle > Landowners and stakeholders have the right to use Mulholland Highway to > access their property or business. Just passing through is a privilege for > others, as long as their vehicles are registered and insured and they have > the correct operator's license. Mullholland is a public street, no one has more rights that others to use it. Residency and property holdings are irrelevant. The concept of stakeholders is silly >Mullholland is a public street, no one has more rights that others to use >it. Residency and property holdings are irrelevant. The concept of >stakeholders is silly Get real. The government cannot prevent property owners and business people from accessing their holdings except in emergency. And there's a law against anybody else trying to stop them from getting to their property and businesses. OTOH, the law enforcement agencies can and do tell the public that they have no legitimate business in a neighborhood or on a public highway. That's why there are anti-cruising ordinances on the books. One upset squid posted a message about being stopped on Seven Level Hill. a squidbait road near Palm Desert. The arresting officer told him that if he even rode up the switchback hill twice at legal speeds, he'd be busted for cruising, if nothing else. The CHP invited property owners and stakeholders in the community around Cornell, CA to meetings to discuss the problems with squidz and stuntas and Ricky Racers, but said squidz, stuntas, and Ricky Racers were not invited. So far as I know, no representative of *any* motorcycle group was invited to participate in the planning of "Iron Horse", but CHP officers leaked the plan to ABATE representatives. Mulholland Hwy is open to the public, who have the revocable privilege of walking or mountain biking on the dirt part, or driving a motor vehicle on the parts which are not closed. Mulholland Hwy runs from Mt. Hollywood Drive in Griffith Park to Leo Carillo State Beach Park on the Pacific ocean. Several miles of the road run along a ridge of the Santa Monica mountains through a residential area of multi- million dollar homes owned by celebrities such as Glenn Campbell and the late Marlon Brando. That area is called Mulholland Drive. After crossing Topanga Canyon Blvd., Mulholland Drive again becomes Mulholland Hwy and becomes rural. The mountains surrounding the road are volcanic in nature. If you've ever seen Dukes of Hazard, you've seen the California oak tree country around the old Paramount Movie Ranch. If you've seen MASH, you've seen the spectacular vertical rocks in Malibu Creek State Park. After passing the notorious Rock Store, Mulholland Hwy ascends a four or five mile long twisty stretch that the Ricky Racers call "The Snake". That section is where the squidz love to congregate and prove their "mad skillz" at crashing their sportbikes trying to ride 50 mph through 25 mph corners. After Mulholland Hwy crosses Kanaan Dume Road, the volcanic scenery becomes so spectacular that a rider would think he had somehow warped to Arizona, except the hills are a whole lot greener. A squid or a stunta would have to be mentally retarded not to notice the beauty of the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area and ecome curious about exactly what it was that President Ronald Reagan saved from being developed and made into a wildnerness park that everybody could enjoy, if they would only park their vehicle and walk on their hind legs to see the fantastic views of the ocean, mountains, islands, and the lush green valleys. http://www.nps.gov/samo/ >>Mullholland is a public street, no one has more rights that others to use >>it. Residency and property holdings are irrelevant. The concept of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > why > there are anti-cruising ordinances on the books. They indeed make those statements, but they they really have no authority to push it beyond that. If they do, that is what the recording capability in your cell phone is for. If you are not doing anything illegal, then having your arm twisted by an LEO is an abuse of authority. Anti crusing ordinances are local, very specific, and are posted on the streets/areas in question. Also the charges hard to hold up in court if challenged. > One upset squid posted a message about being stopped on Seven Level Hill. > a squidbait road near Palm Desert. The arresting officer told him that if > he > even rode up the switchback hill twice at legal speeds, he'd be busted for > cruising, if nothing else. An unsupportable threat, but it doesn't surprise me. I doubt a codger on a GW1500 would have received the same threat, assuming he was behaving himself. The approach is common among LEOs who work traffic. They have a tremendous amount of discrestion and also know that the codger might push back sucessfully. > The CHP invited property owners and stakeholders in the community around > Cornell, CA to meetings to discuss the problems with squidz and stuntas [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > late Marlon > Brando. That area is called Mulholland Drive. The real issue is it private or public roads. If its not private, transist must be allowed under normal circumstances. Its analogus to a right of free passage excersize. Even during max enforcement, non locals are allowed transit. LEO comments to the contrary are suggestions without legal force behind them . > After crossing Topanga Canyon Blvd., Mulholland Drive again becomes > Mulholland Hwy and becomes rural. The mountains surrounding the road are > volcanic in nature.... SNIP (of an excellent description of the area) Having lived there for many years, and ridden/driven the area repeatedly, I am well familiar with the features and stunning landscape.. Never been bothered by the cops or squids. "steve" SNIP >> One upset squid posted a message about being stopped on Seven Level Hill. >> a squidbait road near Palm Desert. The arresting officer told him that if he [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > An unsupportable threat, but it doesn't surprise me. I doubt a codger on a > GW1500 would have received the same threat, assuming he was behaving himself. I bet the junior codger would be hasseled. AAMOF I am certain of it! See I wear all black, ride a GL1000 that is loud (from the factory so if sensei Honda says it must be loud then it is.) and I tend to corner hard enough to risk having the lower valve cover bolts scrub the ground. I have been know to pass CBX's of similar vintage on similar roads in the corners...I ought not have done that though. I fear one or two sh.t themselves at being passed by an old slow motorcycle. >The approach is common among LEOs who work traffic. They have a tremendous >amount of discrestion and also know that the codger might push back >sucessfully. BTDT if it was BS I fought if not I played nice and got a warning. SignatureKeith Schiffner History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it. Robert Heinlein >>The approach is common among LEOs who work traffic. They have a >>tremendous amount of discrestion and also know that the codger might push >>back sucessfully. > > BTDT if it was BS I fought if not I played nice and got a warning. You never push back then, but afterwards...in court, with their supervision, even the media. This assumes that they over stepped. If they caught you being bad, you pay the fine and be polite. >>>The approach is common among LEOs who work traffic. They have a tremendous >>>amount of discrestion and also know that the codger might push back [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > even the media. This assumes that they over stepped. If they caught you > being bad, you pay the fine and be polite. Ah, you haven't learned how then. NOT being argumentative and that goes for when stopped. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. > NOT being argumentative and that goes for when >stopped. The last time I got pulled for a BS stop I was on an interstate in SD. The young state trooper told me before I got my helmet off that I had been doing wheelies in a nearby town. I pulled off my helmet and said "an old man on a 700 pound touring bike with 300 pounds of rider and camping gear doing wheelies? Do you have *any idea* what tires and fork seals cost for a bike like this??" and horse-laughed him. He said "You drive safely" and slunk back into his cage and left. I hadn't been doing any wheelies but I had just scared the snot out of a left-lane daydreamer who probably whipped out a cell phone and called the cops on me. And once in my truck, I was going through a small but locally well known speed trap town. My radar detector went off like the 4th of July but I never saw the cop until he pulled out of his hiding place. He followed me for about 1/4 mile and lit me up as I went out of the city limits. "Do you know why I pulled you over?" "I don't have a clue. I know for a fact that I was 5 under the limit." "Did I see you weaving back there?" "No, you did not." "You weren't weaving back there in front of those apartments?" "No, I was not weaving. If there was anybody weaving, it was you. I don't weave." "Have a nice day." The whole time he was standing there, he was fingering the butt of his gun. I looked in the rear view mirror and saw that he had a girl in the car with him, obviously trying to impress her with his manly prowess. I don't think it worked. -- Jack >>>>The approach is common among LEOs who work traffic. They have a >>>>tremendous amount of discrestion and also know that the codger might [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Ah, you haven't learned how then. NOT being argumentative and that goes > for when stopped. I believe what I said was never be argumentative at the time, but if the LEO crosses the line or the citation is bogus push the issue afterwards. During the stop always be pleasant and polite. I don't go after the cop if he was professional and the citation valid, though I still go to court. >>>Mullholland is a public street, no one has more rights that others to >>>use [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > repeatedly, I am well familiar with the features and stunning > landscape.. Never been bothered by the cops or squids. I've driven it a couple times while down there for visiting relatives. I don't recall seeing any anti-cruising signs on the main part of Mulholland Dr. There was a lot of traffic on the road, I remember that. Robert >I've driven it a couple times while down there for visiting relatives. I >don't recall seeing any anti-cruising signs on the main part of Mulholland >Dr. There was a lot of traffic on the road, I remember that. It's not necessary to post signs informing the public that a certain activity is illegal. The closest populated place to The Rock Store is Cornell, where successful people have bought million$ homes in the country to get away from the noise and traffic. I visited the Peter Strauss Ranch which is in Cornell about half a mile from The Rock Store. Most visitors to the RS don't even know it exists. The actor gave the property to the state. A docent took our group on a botany tour along the trails and I was amazed by the continuous thunder of Harleys with open exhausts echoing off the mountains. I thought to myself, "Is this what rich and successful people have to put up with after buying a country estate?" I talked to the docent, who owns a home along another road popular with Ricky Racers who like to race up and down it. He told me that there were zoning laws to prevent the "mansionification" of the Santa Monicas, IOW, the Malibu city council didn't want the beautiful hillsides to be totally covered with sprawling custom homes. On an individual basis, no single individual feels that his actions are all that unreasonable and rude, the rider with the loud pipes thinks that he's "just passing through", and that nobody should get all that agitated. Then there are the property owners who bought lots in the switchbacks west of the RS. They don't just have loud exhaust pipes going past their house on one side, the loud bikes are going 3/4 of the way around their house, thunderously climbing the hill. One property owner was accused of intentionally throwing rocks and dirt or oil and antifreeze on the road in front of his custom house, which was being built. The problem of The Snake could be fixed by blocking Mulholland west of the RS, and owners could access their property from Kanaan Dume Rd. Their neighborhood would become more exclusive. There are already a few exclusive communities in the Santa Monicas, but they are usually on dead end roads or side roads like the Lake Malibu community just a block from Mulholand Hwy. Only residents can put a boat onto the lake, but there is no gate to the community, so the loud motorcycles cruise through that little community too, even though they have no business whatever there. >>I've driven it a couple times while down there for visiting relatives. >>I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > with > after buying a country estate?" I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, which results on me getting a taste of aricraft noise for most of the day. Some of my less compassionate associates tell me I should have been a little more carefull about where I bought. It irritates me when they say that, but there's some truth to what they say. Don't expect peace and quiet if you live near a through street. > I talked to the docent, who owns a home along another road popular with > Ricky [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > too, > even though they have no business whatever there. Yup. One way of providing tranquility of residents is to crank that into the design of the roads and communities, but others less fortunate are offered more affordable homes immediately adjacent to main thoroughfares right in the city. Our city fathers up here don't seem to be too concerned about quality of life for the common man, so while I can relate to being disturbed by traffic noise, restricting travel on road paid for by the public according to whether or not one has business in the area sounds a little extreme. Better to design quiet into neighborhoods. Another way to help would be to have vehicle noise checks as part of vehicle registration. Robert >Our city fathers up here don't seem to be too >concerned about quality of life for the common man, so while I can relate >to being disturbed by traffic noise, restricting travel on road paid for >by the public according to whether or not one has business in the area >sounds a little extreme. Better to design quiet into neighborhoods. Another way is to close down businesses which attract noisy customers and loiterers to quiet residential neighborhoods. Or take their alcohol licenses away from them so they can't make any money selling beer to bikers on Sunday afternoon. A biker bar that annoyed local residents in Orange County was hit by building code violations over and over until it closed down. The last time I visited Mother's on Mt. Palomar, I was amazed to see a sign that asked riders not to hang out in the parking lot after they finished eating. Mother's had always been a rider friendly place in the 1970's when only touring riders knew about the place. But now they ask riders not to hang out on the porch and not to move the chairs away from the tables so they can lounge around the cafe. The Rock Store was an old 1920's building made with local country rocks and cement and it was run down when Ed bought it in the mid-1960's. Ed was a burned out aerospace engineer looking for a quiet place to run a small business and hardly anybody ever stopped at his store. The first time I ever went there in 1971, I was amazed that there were all of 7 or 8 grungy chopper riders from the San Fernando Valley hanging out there. Nowadays, the RS will get about 1000 or more RUB's everyday. The place has changed from the old days of scary outlaw bikers who had to kill their parents to get into a gang (according to Ed), and the clientele is much wealthier and wants to show off their wealth by posing at the RS. I feel like I've stumbled onto an aftermarket accessory catalog commercial when I stop by there, and I was actually invited to be an unpaid extra in some kind of commercial there when I stopped by on a weekend. The locals have been trying unsucessfully to shut the RS down for decades now. Ed and his wife don't even live in the area any more, they drive down from their horse ranch in Santa Maria to open the RS on weekends. Maybe the RS will close its doors and parking lot when Ed passes away, and it will be a lot quieter in Cornell. > I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, which > results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of the day. I've never thought about that. What do they do when the light turns red? Signature"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE outback_jon@ver.no.sp.am.izon.net AMD Opteron 146 (@2.8) and 6.1 GHz of other AMD power... http://folding.stanford.edu - got folding? Team 48435 2006 ZG1000A Concours "Blueline" COG# 7385 CDA# 0157 1980 CB750F SuperSport "CoolerKing" >> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, which >> results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of the day. > > I've never thought about that. What do they do when the light turns red? They run them. Their tags are painted on the side so the red light cameras can't get the tag numbers. ;^) SignatureKeith Schiffner Assistant to the Assistant Undersecretary of the Ministry of Silly Walks. "terrorist organization" is a redundancy >> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, which >> results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of the day. > >I've never thought about that. What do they do when the light turns red? What light? As I recall there is a vertical seperation of at least 500 feet as aircraft flying west, southwest or northwest are flying at even altitudes while aircraft flying east, southeast or northeast are flying at uneven altitudes. Or is it the other way around? Pilots flying due north or due south have to keep their head on a swivel. >>> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, which >>> results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of the day. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pilots flying due north or due south have to keep their head on a swivel. ***WOOSH*** Signature"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE outback_jon@ver.no.sp.am.izon.net AMD Opteron 146 (@2.8) and 6.1 GHz of other AMD power... http://folding.stanford.edu - got folding? Team 48435 2006 ZG1000A Concours "Blueline" COG# 7385 CDA# 0157 1980 CB750F SuperSport "CoolerKing" >>>> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, >>>> which results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > ***WOOSH*** an appropriate sound, in so many ways >>>>> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, >>>>> which results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> > an appropriate sound, in so many ways I thought so too... Signature"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE outback_jon@ver.no.sp.am.izon.net AMD Opteron 146 (@2.8) and 6.1 GHz of other AMD power... http://folding.stanford.edu - got folding? Team 48435 2006 ZG1000A Concours "Blueline" COG# 7385 CDA# 0157 1980 CB750F SuperSport "CoolerKing" >> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, which >> results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of the day. > > I've never thought about that. What do they do when the light turns > red? There's not a cop that can catch them so they just take their chances and run it. And talk about open pipes. Robert >>> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, >>> which results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > chances > and run it. And talk about open pipes. Flashing on the LAPD T-38 in "Dragnet". Signature-- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >> I occasionally gripe about living under an aircraft intersection, >> which results on me getting a taste of aircraft noise for most of >> the day. > > I've never thought about that. What do they do when the light turns red? Depending on which light is red, they either over shoot the runway and have to do a go around or the "land" short. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle > He told me that there were zoning laws to prevent the "mansionification" > of > the Santa Monicas, IOW, the Malibu city council didn't want the beautiful > hillsides to be totally covered with sprawling custom homes. Nobody does NIMBY like the wealthy in CA. A friend who has owned property in that area for many years is trying to build his retirement home there. Not weathly, just bought early, built a barn and a small cabin with approval for the home. His neighbor built a McMansion and then sold it. The new owner is now trying to block him from completing his home. Classic NIMBY. > The problem of The Snake could be fixed by blocking Mulholland west of the > RS, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > too, > even though they have no business whatever there. Its back to that private vs public streets thing again. If its a private street, it can be blocked, gated, access denied, etc. If its public, it can not be made into a residents only area. If it was that easy, it would have been done by now by the rich NIMBYists. One of the reasons they can not block them is public safety access (Police/Fire/Rescue). Its been tried before. I do not need a reason to be in an area.or on the public street. I am free to traverse for any reason I choose, by any means I choose (walking, bicycle, motorcycle, car, motorhome...). LEOs may stop me and discuss it with me, but it is not illegal. I am not a supporter of the very annoying loud pipe/little dick crowd or squids and stunters who endanger others, however, I will not allow my rights to be curtailed because someone does not like the actions of a 3rd party. >>Perhaps not. I wonder if any credible study exists that shows handing >>out tickets saves lives. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > if they slowed down after getting a ticket and try to determine the veracity > of the claim? Gee, you would think that after all this time the NTSB would have some means of measuring such things as fatalities per passenger mile. Engineers might even have ways of counting the number of vehicles that travel over a given stretch of road in a given time period so that they can work out appropriate speed limits, where to put signals vs signs, etc. > After a rash of fatal accidents on local mountain roads, the California > Highway Patrol authorized overtime for special enforcement activities and the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > special enforcements on weekends, so intelligent sportriders started riding > on Mondays or Fridays. So all the special enforcement did was change what day you broke the law. > Legislation and law enforcement is reactive. If there was no problem, your > state senators wouldn't enact a law against speeding. Nonesense. The TOBALers will always find something to complain about. > There's no law against killing yourself while pursuing the goal of becoming > part of some nebulous community of stunters and Ricky Racers who terrorize > residents and commuters on twisty roads while practicing their riding > "skillz". There's a whole host of laws ranging from speeding to reckless driving and beyond. A cop can always find something to write you up for even if it means busting your tail light. > The writer of that particular blog was complaining about being stopped for > riding at legal speeds through the special enforcement zone. My question to > him would be, "What the heck are you doing in a mountain recreation area on > your motorcycle? Why aren't you off on a trail, hiking or mountain biking and > getting down with nature?" Maybe he was doing what he found fun rather than what you find fun. If he was stopped while riding legal, then it was nothing more than harassment. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >Gee, you would think that after all this time the NTSB would have some >means of measuring such things as fatalities per passenger mile. >Engineers might even have ways of counting the number of vehicles that >travel over a given stretch of road in a given time period so that >they can work out appropriate speed limits, where to put signals vs >signs, etc. Engineers have to do a traffic survey every five years on every road in California to determine the traffic load and the average speed of vehicles using it, so they can make recommendations for changing the speed limits. But the legislators have already determined certain standards, like prima facie speed limits and maximum speed limits and not very many speed limit signs are going to be changed. And, traffic surveys and engineering recommendations aren't going to solve the basic problem. Sport riding as you see it today is a sport without a venue for most riders. They have the motorcycle, they have all the gear and they ride it all the time, they just don't have any place to legally ride their sport bike as it was designed to be ridden, unless they go to a track day or join a racing club and compete. There was no big problem with sport bikes in the Santa Monica Mountains above Malibu until the mid-1970's, when the editors of the now-defunct Cycle Magazine began testing their Ducati super bike. The California Hot Rod was the subject of an article that referred to Mulholland Hwy as "Racer Road". More and more squirrels began to show up at The Rock Store to do their illegal public road racing, and they drag raced in front of the golf course. Later, when the highway patrol cracked down on the Mulholland Hwy scofflaws, the drag racing moved to agricultural roads in the bean fields to the west. Every squid in the area converged on The Rock Store on Saturday and Sunday, and law enforcement became so intense the editors of Cycle Magazine wrote another article called "Beyond Racer Road". That article hinted at a better road than Mulholland, saying that it was smooth and that CalTrans cleared the rocks off every day. We all knew that Cycle Magazine was referring to the infamous Angeles Crest Highway, which the California Highway Patrol calls "Bllod Alley" due to the number of traffic fatalities. Half of all traffic deaths on the Crest are motorcyclists who tested their skllz and died in the trial. >> so intelligent sportriders started riding >> on Mondays or Fridays. > >So all the special enforcement did was change what day you broke the law. My riding is different from what squids and stuntas call sport riding. Sure, I test the performance and handling of my sport bikes, but my tests are not abusive, I don't do wheelies and stoppies and burnouts, and I don't shred a rear tire every 2000 miles and then brag about it. I have never video taped one of my rides so I could say, "Hey, look at me, I'm a Ricky Racer and I'm fa-a-a-st, just like those guyz I saw on TV!" My idea of sport riding doesn't include riding in follow-the-leader packs five feet apart and trying to do whatever the lunatic leader does, just to prove my manhood. My idea of sport riding doesn't involve riding up and down the same stretch of twisty road a dozen times. I go on a long loop through several canyons, maybe 250 to 300 miles long and I ride at speeds where I can enjoy the scenery. My sport rides are more like what sports car driver used to do back in the 1960's. A better description for my rides is "sport touring". But all the squids and stuntas and Ricky Racers swarming the national forest and national recreation areas put a cramp in my sport touring. The cops see my full coverage motorcycle helmet and my multi-colored leather jacket and my sport bike and they think I'm a squid too. Then, after they've stopped me and I take off my helmet and they see who I am, they realize I'm not some punk kid out there terrorizing the public. >Nonesense. The TOBALers will always find something to complain about. The US Constitution provides for redress for grievances. Laws are written to protect property owners and businessmen from criminals or roving bands of squids, stuntas, and Ricky Racers. >There's a whole host of laws ranging from speeding to reckless driving >and beyond. No law is enacted if a need for it hasn't been demonstrated. Legislators listen to too much whining from people who aren't property owners or stake holders in the community though, and crap like comprehensive immigration reform bills waste the legislators' time. >A cop can always find something to write you up for even if it means >busting your tail light. I've been riding/driving for almost half a century and have never heard of a cop breaking anybody's tail light. That sort of stuff is seen in paranoid "B" movies with scripts written by bleeding heart liberal hippy douchebags. >Maybe he was doing what he found fun rather than what you find fun. Donning a leather jacket and riding boots and a full face helmet an riding a motorcycle through the Santa Monica Mountains Recreation Area is like showing up at a swimming pool dressed to play ice hockey. Those mountains are a tee-shirt and shorts and hiking boots (or running shoes) area, they are not a f.cking racetrack for Ricky Racers. >If he was stopped while riding legal, then it was nothing more than >harassment. The CHP's sat up on top of the hill and watched him speed through the twisties and stopped him. >>A cop can always find something to write you up for even if it means >>busting your tail light. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "B" > movies with scripts written by bleeding heart liberal hippy douchebags. I did personally witness the equivalent of that on the Dragon recently. The THP has been told to write everything they can. Its also a bit of a scam since they know many will not come back to contest the citations. It was not limited to motorcycles. Note that neither I or anyone in my group was stopped. Small portable cameras and such are becoming a deterrent to some of these excesses, though sometimes the cops try to illegally confiscate the video. I have also seen similar actions in small towns looking for revenue from college kids in the next town etc. They don't actually break the tail lights, but they do write up things that are either unprovable or very gray. While fines are never enough to to cover the cost of the LEO's writting them, they still can be significant revenue. I have seen counter protests where everyone requested a court hearing. Swamped the docket and stripped the area of all their LEOs since they had to be in court. >I did personally witness the equivalent of that on the Dragon recently. The >THP has been told to write everything they can. Its also a bit of a scam >since they know many will not come back to contest the citations. It was >not limited to motorcycles. Note that neither I or anyone in my group was >stopped. A local CHP motor officer compared special enforcements to the way the US government got the nomadic Indians of the Great Plains to go live on the reservation. He said that the buffalo hunters were paid to kill all the buffalo and starve the Indians into submission. It pretty much works that way with stuntas and squidz and Ricky Racers. If they keep going to the same special enforcement hotspot every weekend without registration, insurance or proper license endorsement, their buffalo gets killed, i.e., their motorcycle is impounded. Same thing with street racers. If they keep going back and getting caught drag racing, their car or motorcycle gets impounded. Even spectators' cars get impounded. If Ricky Racer loves his speed, going over 100 mph is a $500 fine. Second offense is a $1000 fine and license suspension. Third offense may result in his buffalo being killed permanently, i.e., the state seizes his bike and sells it to the highest bidder at auction. See, the state and local governments want everybody to have a permit and insurance for special events, they want the events to have schedules and private security patrols to keep order, etc. That's why the police departments allow cruise nights or car shows to take place at approved places. OTOH, the government *hates* spontaneous gatherings, because some squid or stunta will always get too enthusiastic and he will start acting out his fantasy that the whole world is watching him grandstand for their delight. The cops always try to break up "unlawful assemblies", whether it's a bunch of kids in a parking lot or a bunch of squidz on a mountain road. >I have also seen similar actions in small towns looking for revenue from >college kids in the next town etc. They don't actually break the tail >lights, but they do write up things that are either unprovable or very gray. I have been seeing this sort of thing happening on city boulevards on the various mid-week "cruise nights" since the mid-1960's. Property owners don't want the kids cruising and littering the boulevard, or parking in their parking lots to drink beer and fornicate. If you ever heard the classic song that goes, "and she'll have fun, fun, fun, 'til her daddy takes the t-bird away", the hamburger stand mentioned in the lyrics was the A&W Root Beer stand on Hawthorne Blvd. Back in those days, rich kids weren't riding GSXR's, they were cruising the boulevards in cars that belonged on the dragstrip, like hemis and 427's and they would exhibit their best timing slip in the rear side window. Of course the cops busted the kids for everything they could. One time I was driving a powerful hotrodded sports car and I was getting onto the freeway next to an 18 wheeler. I didn't see the CHP cruiser on the other side of the truck until I was doing 85 mph passing both truck and cop car. The cop in the right hand seat was a trainee and his training officer asked him if he needed to write me for speeding or write up a mechanical violation. The trainee elected to write me for speed, and when I told the judge about that little ticket quota negotiation, he threw it out of court and told the cop to never come into his court room with a case like that again. > A local CHP motor officer compared special enforcements to the way > the US government got the nomadic Indians of the Great Plains to go [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > endorsement, their buffalo gets killed, i.e., their motorcycle is > impounded. As I said in another post, I have all the required documents. > Same thing with street racers. If they keep going back and getting caught > drag racing, their car or motorcycle gets impounded. Even spectators' cars > get impounded. They do this in Philadelphia too. > If Ricky Racer loves his speed, going over 100 mph is a $500 fine. Second > offense is a $1000 fine and license suspension. Third offense may result in > his buffalo being killed permanently, i.e., the state seizes his bike and > sells it to the highest bidder at auction. Pennsylvania is not so lenient. 31 mph over the limit gets you a suspended license. The highest speed limit in the state is 65 mph. I don't even want to know what the fine is. Those things change on a regular basis. They go up but not down. > See, the state and local governments want everybody to have a permit and > insurance for special events, they want the events to have schedules and > private security patrols to keep order, etc. Of course they do. That's what a police state is all about. > That's why the police departments allow cruise nights or car shows to take > place at approved places. Yeah, that pesky 1st amendment has nothing to do with it. > OTOH, the government *hates* spontaneous gatherings, because some squid or > stunta will always get too enthusiastic and he will start acting out his > fantasy that the whole world is watching him grandstand for their delight. You mean like MotoGP races? > The cops always try to break up "unlawful assemblies", whether it's a bunch > of kids in a parking lot or a bunch of squidz on a mountain road. And what exactly constitutes an "unlawful assembly"? > Of course the cops busted the kids for everything they could. One > time I was driving a powerful hotrodded sports car and I was getting [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > negotiation, he threw it out of court and told the cop to never come > into his court room with a case like that again. Well that wouldn't be an issue today. They would simply laser tag you and write up a legitimate speeding ticket. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle On Aug 24, 8:42 am, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> wrote: > My riding is different from what squids and stuntas call sport riding. > But all the squids and stuntas and Ricky Racers swarming the national forest > and national recreation areas put a cramp in my sport touring. The cops see [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then, after they've stopped me and I take off my helmet and they see who I am, > they realize I'm not some punk kid out there terrorizing the public. Heh. Stupid cops. Can't see how different you are while RIDING; no, they have to go on your physical characteristics (age? mane of flowing silver hair? movie star good looks? nationally recognizable face?) to let you go without hassling your a.s. I guess it's a good thing you're *not* a libertarian! > On Aug 24, 8:42 am, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I guess it's a good thing you're *not* a libertarian! Whoa up there, pard.. You just described me.. lol.. Not taking one damned thing away from the Dragon, but when you guys get done with all the practicing.. there is a stretch of highway from Mazatlan Mexico .. over to Torreon, that you might want to get a run on.. That sucker is way more than 11 miles and it goes on and on,, Leaving Mazatlan, there is an all day ride that challenges every rider for the endless hours of the most challenging highways in North America.. Seldom see any law enforcement on that highway and for a cruiser like mine, there is always the chance of running out of gas.. Like I say, when you guys get all done practicing on the Dragon, come on down and tackle this one.. Some of the Mexican locals call that highway the Devil's Backbone.. Espalda de Diablo.. Try it.. you'll know you have been on a ride when you finish.. Bill Walker Irving, Tx. > On Aug 24, 8:42 am, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I guess it's a good thing you're *not* a libertarian! Its just a reasonable use of their discretion. They know that us graybeards may be able to push back effectively. As long as we are not part of the problem, they will do their "I'm in charge" gig and things will move on. If you are either part of the problem, perceived as venerable, or they think you actions will inspire others to ignore the "I'm in charge" gig, then they action, not all of it legal at times. >> On Aug 24, 8:42 am, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > actions will inspire others to ignore the "I'm in charge" gig, then they > action, not all of it legal at times. Who said the leo is in charge? He's a f.cking salaried schmuck whose continued employment is dependant upon his good behavior. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. >>> On Aug 24, 8:42 am, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Who said the leo is in charge? He's a f.cking salaried schmuck whose > continued employment is dependant upon his good behavior. They do, and challenging them in real time is never a good thing. They have arrest powers, firearms, tasers, pepper spray, a baton, and training that mandates that they have to be in charge at all times to survive. Afterwards when its their word against the recording you made, then the citizen has a fighting chance >> Who said the leo is in charge? He's a f.cking salaried schmuck >> whose continued employment is dependant upon his good behavior. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > times to survive. Afterwards when its their word against the > recording you made, then the citizen has a fighting chance Yep. The best policy is to say as little as possible as politely as possible. If necessary, tell it to the judge or just eat the ticket. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >...They know that us graybeards >may be able to push back effectively. ... I can't wait for my next jury duty that depends on the testimony of a local cop to convict. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>...They know that us graybeards >>may be able to push back effectively. ... > > I can't wait for my next jury duty that depends on the testimony of a > local cop to convict. I've been summoned for jury duty on several occasions (although never selected for a trial). There is a question on the form that specifically asks if you would take a cops word over someone else's. Under the law, a cop's testimony carries no extra credibility. So if you answer "yes" to that question, you will be dismissed. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >>>...They know that us graybeards >>>may be able to push back effectively. ... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Under the law, a cop's testimony carries no extra credibility. So if >you answer "yes" to that question, you will be dismissed. Voir dire varies by jurisdiction, case, judge, etc. That form is a local form. I have seen printed forms and I have seen courts that had no form. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >Voir dire varies by jurisdiction, case, judge, etc. That form is a >local form. I have seen printed forms and I have seen courts that had >no form. In Calgary if you can walk without dragging your knuckles and have a clean criminal record you're in. Don't ask me how I know. <g> -- Remember It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, who has given us freedom of religion. It is the VETERAN , not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the VETERAN , not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the VETERAN , Not the Campus Organizer who has given us freedom to assemble. It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. It is the VETERAN , not the politician, Who has given us the right to vote. > >Voir dire varies by jurisdiction, case, judge, etc. That form is a > >local form. I have seen printed forms and I have seen courts that had [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, > who has given us freedom of religion. It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. > It is the VETERAN , not the reporter, > who has given us freedom of the press. It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. > It is the VETERAN , not the poet, > who has given us freedom of speech. It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. > It is the VETERAN , Not the Campus Organizer > who has given us freedom to assemble. It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. > It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer, > who has given us the right to a fair trial. It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. > It is the VETERAN , not the politician, > Who has given us the right to vote. It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. >> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Who has given us the right to vote. >It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. You have a strange view of history and a limited view of the free world TW. -- Remember It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, who has given us freedom of religion. It is the VETERAN , not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the VETERAN , not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the VETERAN , Not the Campus Organizer who has given us freedom to assemble. It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. It is the VETERAN , not the politician, Who has given us the right to vote. >>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > You have a strange view of history and a limited view of the free > world TW. Personally I'm curious as to the specific war or battle in which the VETERAN gave us each of those. Signature-- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Personally I'm curious as to the specific war or battle in which the >VETERAN gave us each of those. Each and every one, starting 1775. This country was not created, built, and held by virtue of debate with the rest of the world. It was created, built, and held by force of arms. And the day we no longer have that strength, we are done as a country. SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > force of arms. And the day we no longer have that strength, we are > done as a country. What war or battle fought in 1775 gave those rights to the people of the United Kingdom? You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume that (a) those rights did not exist prior to the creation of the United States of America and (b) that only inhabitants of that country hold those rights. Signature-- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >What war or battle fought in 1775 gave those rights to the people of >the United Kingdom? Ummm...... the UK was not the topic of concern for the ACLU, eh ? Nor of the post. Now, if you want to see England's bloody long-fought struggle against tyrants and dictators aka Kings, you have to start a bit earlier than 1775. And there you will find VETERANS who FOUGHT AND DIED for it. >You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume that >(a) those rights did not exist prior to the creation of the United >States of America and (b) that only inhabitants of that country hold >those rights. You are blind to reality if you think we would still have them today, if they were not won and held by arms. Both here, and elsewhere. Freedom is not, has never been, and will never be, free. There have always been, and will always be, those who would take it away from us at gunpoint. SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Ummm...... the UK was not the topic of concern for the ACLU, > eh ? What does the ACLU have to do with VETERANS winning rights? > Nor of the post. Now, if you want to see England's bloody > long-fought struggle against tyrants and dictators aka Kings, you > have > to start a bit earlier than 1775. And there you will find VETERANS > who FOUGHT AND DIED for it. So tell us in which war or battle each of those rights was won. So far all I've seen from you is vague generalizations. If, for example VETERANS FOUGHT AND DIED to win freedom of speech then must have been a battle or war in which it was won. So tell us which one. >> You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume that >> (a) those rights did not exist prior to the creation of the United [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > There have always been, and will always be, those who would take it > away from us at gunpoint. Taking it away after the fact is not the same as winning it. So tell us when and where force of arms obtained each of those rights. If you can't then I'm forced to the conclusion that you are just blindly parroting a slogan. Signature-- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >>>>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >What does the ACLU have to do with VETERANS winning rights? Not a damned thing. >> Nor of the post. Now, if you want to see England's bloody >> long-fought struggle against tyrants and dictators aka Kings, you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >VETERANS FOUGHT AND DIED to win freedom of speech then must have been >a battle or war in which it was won. So tell us which one. Many, over time. The development on Anglo-Saxon culture, or American / European culture todya , if you will, did not happen over night, nor can it be reduced down to some simplistic set of steps, like a paint-by-the-numbers picture. >>> You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume that >>> (a) those rights did not exist prior to the creation of the United [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >If you can't then I'm forced to the conclusion that you are just >blindly parroting a slogan. Please feel free to feel forced if you like. The fact remains, the rights we enjoy today, we enjoy thanks to the veterans who have fought for them. And that applies to Americans, English, Canadians, and everyone else. Including the Germans, Japanese, etc. SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>>>>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > night, nor can it be reduced down to some simplistic set of steps, > like a paint-by-the-numbers picture. In other words you don't have a clue, you're just sure without any evidence that VETERANS somehow won these rights by force of arms. >>>> You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume >>>> that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Americans, English, Canadians, and everyone else. Including the > Germans, Japanese, etc. I notice that you are no longer shouting the word "veterans". Goody, progress is being made in your education. Signature-- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >>>>>>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >In other words you don't have a clue, you're just sure without any >evidence that VETERANS somehow won these rights by force of arms. IOW, I don't feel any obligation to do your homewwork for you, or to teach you history. I much prefer to let you wallow happily in your ignorance. >>>>> You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume >>>>> that [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >I notice that you are no longer shouting the word "veterans". Goody, >progress is being made in your education. VETERANS ! VETERANS ! VETERANS ! SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>>>>>>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>>>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > happily > in your ignorance. In other words you don't have a clue whether your assertions are true or not and can't be assed to find out, but you'll keep making them vehemently until Hell freezes over and get pissy if anybody dares to question them. Which oddly, does remind me of several school teachers I've encountered. >>>>>> You're taking a very parochial view of history when you assume >>>>>> that [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > VETERANS ! VETERANS ! VETERANS ! BADGER ! BADGER ! BADGER ! Signature-- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:39:33 -0400, "J. Clarke" >> VETERANS ! VETERANS ! VETERANS ! > >BADGER ! BADGER ! BADGER ! Don't need no steenking badgers ! SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>>>>>>>> It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, >>>>>>>>> who has given us freedom of religion. [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > Americans, English, Canadians, and everyone else. Including the > Germans, Japanese, etc. I heard that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 > This country was not created, built, and held by virtue of > debate with the rest of the world. It was created, built, and held by > force of arms. And the day we no longer have that strength, we are > done as a country. The last nail was hammered in in 1968. More nails have been hammered in since then just to be sure. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >> Remember >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> Who has given us the right to vote. >It was the ACLU who defined it in its modern form. Considering that Calgary is Canadian, how did the American Civil Liberties Union have anything to do with his freedoms? SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>Voir dire varies by jurisdiction, case, judge, etc. That form is a >>local form. I have seen printed forms and I have seen courts that had [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Don't ask me how I know. <g> Well, hopefully, they at the least weed out those who know either the plaintiff or the defendant SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>>Voir dire varies by jurisdiction, case, judge, etc. That form is a >>>local form. I have seen printed forms and I have seen courts that had [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Well, hopefully, they at the least weed out those who know either the >plaintiff or the defendant Barely. From what I know of our system and what I read of yours, they are two entirely different animals. More so when it comes to sentencing and time served. At least that is the most visible difference. -- Remember It is the VETERAN , not the preacher, who has given us freedom of religion. It is the VETERAN , not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the VETERAN , not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the VETERAN , Not the Campus Organizer who has given us freedom to assemble. It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. It is the VETERAN , not the politician, Who has given us the right to vote. >Heh. Stupid cops. Can't see how different you are while RIDING; no, >they have to go on your physical characteristics (age? mane of >flowing silver hair? movie star good looks? nationally recognizable >face?) to let you go without hassling your a.s. Cops get into the mindset that anybody on a sportbike is a young punk. When they do a special enforcement, they look hard at everybody to catch them doing *something* or having an equipment violation. Like, I was riding the Crest and a Los Angeles Country Sheriff's deputy stopped me. He said, "If you want to get on it, you should go somewhere else. I could hear you coming for five miles. What's that exhaust pipe you have there, a 4-into-1?" I showed him the EPA legend on the muffler and said, "It's the stock pipe that came with the bike from the showroom floor. And, I was riding 45mph in a 55mph zone. Is that 'getting on it' according to your rules?" He let me go without challenging my assertion with a citation. That was probably because I'm so distinguished looking. A vteran rider I know was riding his BSA Victor on Mulholland with a bunch of younger guys on ratty looking RD350's. The cop didn't know anything about motorcycles, he stopped them all. When the cop got around to asking the BSA rider for his papers, he discovered that the guy was 65 years old. The BSA rider then claimed that he was just putting along when half the Yamahas passed him and then the cop stopped everybody before the rest of the Yamahas could pass. So the cop let the old guy go. The cop didn't know he was once a professional flat track racer. No, it wasn't Filbert. On Aug 24, 7:50 pm, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> wrote: > tomor...@erols.com wrote: > >Heh. Stupid cops. Can't see how different you are while RIDING; no, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > So the cop let the old guy go. The cop didn't know he was once a professional > flat track racer. Whew. I bet that was a relief! > Cops get into the mindset that anybody on a sportbike is a young punk. When > they do a special enforcement, they look hard at everybody to catch them > doing *something* or having an equipment violation. The brightest thing about a cop may be his shoes, but even they aren't that stupid. Sport bikes are expensive to buy (at least new) and to insure. I bet you will find a lot of those "young punks" are in their 30s or 40s. > Like, I was riding the Crest and a Los Angeles Country Sheriff's deputy > stopped me. He said, "If you want to get on it, you should go somewhere else. > I could hear you coming for five miles. What's that exhaust pipe you have > there, a 4-into-1?" Ride in top gear and that won't be a problem. My bike has a 4-2-1 exhaust and is quieter than a riced out civic or a pickup truck. People don't hear me unless I'm winding out the engine at full throttle. > He let me go without challenging my assertion with a citation. That was > probably because I'm so distinguished looking. More likely he didn't want to waste an off day in court without sufficient evidence. > A vteran rider I know was riding his BSA Victor on Mulholland with a bunch of > younger guys on ratty looking RD350's. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So the cop let the old guy go. The cop didn't know he was once a professional > flat track racer. That's a good story. I gotta remember that one. My bike is a naked standard and would in no way be mistaken for a sport bike. And if it was, a judge would see through the cop's story straight away unless the cop had prima fascia evidence like a radar or laser tag reading. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >>Gee, you would think that after all this time the NTSB would have some >>means of measuring such things as fatalities per passenger mile. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > prima facie speed limits and maximum speed limits and not very many > speed limit signs are going to be changed. So the expensive engineers' work is a moot effort since the legislators have already made up their minds. Why confuse them with the facts? > And, traffic surveys and engineering recommendations aren't going to solve > the basic problem. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was designed to be ridden, unless they go to a track day or join a racing > club and compete. I haven't seen any competitive riding in my area. I must ride on the wrong roads. You can probably say the same thing about many cars. Although the SCCA does have autox. But that is an event where you never get past second gear. > There was no big problem with sport bikes in the Santa Monica Mountains above > Malibu until the mid-1970's, when the editors of the now-defunct Cycle [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Later, when the highway patrol cracked down on the Mulholland Hwy scofflaws, > the drag racing moved to agricultural roads in the bean fields to the west. Hmmm. I bet a drag strip uses less land and is cheaper than a golf course. It could probably raise more tax revenues as well. I wonder why no one bothered to build a proper drag strip. Come to think of it, you could probably build a regular race track in the space of a golf course with room to spare. Still, getting off the beaten path probably solved most of the problem. > Every squid in the area converged on The Rock Store on Saturday and Sunday, > and law enforcement became so intense the editors of Cycle Magazine wrote [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Highway, which the California Highway Patrol calls "Bllod Alley" due to the > number of traffic fatalities. So the cops knew about it too. All they had to do was step up enforcement there as well. > Half of all traffic deaths on the Crest are motorcyclists who tested > their skllz and died in the trial. That is a risk you take when you push a high performance machine on the uncontrolled environment of a public road. > My riding is different from what squids and stuntas call sport riding. Sure, > I test the performance and handling of my sport bikes, but my tests are not > abusive, I don't do wheelies and stoppies and burnouts, and I don't shred a > rear tire every 2000 miles and then brag about it. Good for you. I've never done stoppie or a burnout. Tires are expensive afterall. I've got over 5000 miles on my tires and at least 50% of my tread on the rear and a lot more on the front. My front wheel has come up a couple of times. Neither of those times were intentional. I still don't know how to do a controlled wheelie. > I have never video taped one of my rides so I could say, "Hey, look at me, > I'm a Ricky Racer and I'm fa-a-a-st, just like those guyz I saw on TV!" I don't use video tape. This is the 21st century. And I don't go all that fast. I am generally close to the posted limits. And the camera could come in very useful if I ever cross a cage that pulls out in front of me and tries to play the, "I didn't see him" card. > My idea of sport riding doesn't include riding in follow-the-leader packs > five feet apart and trying to do whatever the lunatic leader does, just to > prove my manhood. I've never participated in a group ride. > My idea of sport riding doesn't involve riding up and down the same > stretch of twisty road a dozen times. I go on a long loop through > several canyons, maybe 250 to 300 miles long and I ride at speeds > where I can enjoy the scenery. The roads near my home are going to get traveled on more than roads further away. I generally ride in a fairly random circuit. I don't pre-plan my routes. I just go where the spirit takes me. I certainly don't go back and forth over the same stretch of road over and over. How boring. > My sport rides are more like what sports car driver used to do back in the > 1960's. A better description for my rides is "sport touring". That's way before my time. But I am riding to enjoy myself. What's wrong with that? The only person at risk is myself. > But all the squids and stuntas and Ricky Racers swarming the > national forest and national recreation areas put a cramp in my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > who I am, they realize I'm not some punk kid out there terrorizing > the public. Oh joy to you. Profiling is working in your favor. But you still got pulled over when you claim you ride according to the law (now). I guess it's OK with you to be pulled over by a traffic cop without cause. Mind you, if I'm pulled over I can also show full coverage insurance, registration, inspection, and motorcycle endorsement on my license. I'm 100% legal. >>Nonesense. The TOBALers will always find something to complain about. > > The US Constitution provides for redress for grievances. Laws are written to > protect property owners and businessmen from criminals or roving bands of > squids, stuntas, and Ricky Racers. Laws are written to justify the jobs of legislators. People with money just happen to have more influence. >>There's a whole host of laws ranging from speeding to reckless driving >>and beyond. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > holders in the community though, and crap like comprehensive immigration > reform bills waste the legislators' time. You just contradicted yourself in one paragraph. There are plenty of laws that are passed without any need or just cause. The AWB, the DMCA, the PATRIOT Act, and many more come to mind. >>A cop can always find something to write you up for even if it means >>busting your tail light. > > I've been riding/driving for almost half a century and have never heard of a > cop breaking anybody's tail light. That sort of stuff is seen in paranoid "B" > movies with scripts written by bleeding heart liberal hippy douchebags. So because you have never seen it means it never happens? >>Maybe he was doing what he found fun rather than what you find fun. > > Donning a leather jacket and riding boots and a full face helmet an riding a > motorcycle through the Santa Monica Mountains Recreation Area is like showing > up at a swimming pool dressed to play ice hockey. I thought you said there were some fun roads up there. Riding is recreation. It also makes damn good sense to wear protective gear. > Those mountains are a tee-shirt and shorts and hiking boots (or > running shoes) area, they are not a f.cking racetrack for Ricky > Racers. So when you ride to the trail head, you are not wearing proper protective gear? Perhaps you would like motorcycles banned completely from the roads. Isn't California the only state in the Union that allows lane splitting? It seems they have a more libertarian attitude than you do with regards to motorcycles. >>If he was stopped while riding legal, then it was nothing more than >>harassment. > > The CHP's sat up on top of the hill and watched him speed through the > twisties and stopped him. I see. So they clocked him and issued him a citation for speeding and he paid a fine. Why didn't you say so in the first place? SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle > Hmmm. I bet a drag strip uses less land and is cheaper than a golf > course. It could probably raise more tax revenues as well. I wonder > why no one bothered to build a proper drag strip. As an uneducated member of the general public in this regard, I see little fun in holding the throttle wide open for the 10 or so seconds every hour you get to run. YMMV, of course. > Come to think of it, you could probably build a regular race track in > the space of a golf course with room to spare. The Autobahn in Joliet, IL was built with this thought in mind, country club style. > Scenic overlook where the Ricky Racers gather: > http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee9cd1c Heil Helmick! > > Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky > > Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving > > lives" are BS. > > Perhaps not. I wonder if any credible study exists that shows handing > out tickets saves lives. That is a good question. I suppose it wold depend on which kinds of tickets they handed out. If no one ever ticketed for running red lights or driving ion the wrong side of the road, you tell me what would happen. > I would be curious to know if the revenue > exceeds the administrative costs. Absolutely it does. That is why so many towns like to hand out such big fines. It's the ancient economic niche of highway robbery, appropriated by the governments. Nevertheless, I am in favor of fines for loud vehicles. That *is* a case of disturbing the peace. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. > Nevertheless, I am in favor of fines for loud vehicles. That *is* a case > of disturbing the peace. I agree with this in principle. The tricky part is establishing what constitutes "loud". I certainly don't like the garbage truck rumbling around at 05:30 in the morning. Plus you have lawn mowers, leaf blowers, chain saws, etc all out and about making noise. It is an unhappy morning when your neighbor has one of his trees run through the chipper. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >It is an unhappy morning when your neighbor has one of his trees run >through the chipper. Yes, but he can only chip that tree once. -- Jack >>It is an unhappy morning when your neighbor has one of his trees run >>through the chipper. > > Yes, but he can only chip that tree once. And he can take all morning to do it. A bike is gone in less than half a minute. Besides, most bikes seem to be running quieter exhaust systems than a lot of other vehicles. And when they are loud, it's because they are going fast. Or some a.shole cruiser rider decided open pipes were a good idea. I do hate those. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >>>It is an unhappy morning when your neighbor has one of his trees run >>>through the chipper. >> >> Yes, but he can only chip that tree once. > >And he can take all morning to do it Having run a chipper before, I can testify that you're not going to run a whole tree through one in a few minutes unless it's one of those huge commercial jobs. If it's the Troy-bilt variety, it's going to take a while. If it has a 6 cylinder diesel engine, it goes a little faster. > A bike is gone in less than half a minute. Unless it's a Harley... >Besides, most bikes seem to be running quieter exhaust >systems than a lot of other vehicles. Bullshit. > And when they are loud, it's because they are going fast. Bullshit. > Or some a.shole cruiser rider decided open pipes were a good idea. Last Saturday I took a hike to a waterfall off the side of the Cherohala Skyway. It coincided with the Hog Rally in Knoxville. The view was great, but I could hear the rumble of those life-saving pipes the whole time. None of them were doing over 35mph but you could hear them for miles. -- Jack > On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:41:57 -0400, David Steuber > <david@david-steuber.com> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > -- > Jack Here's an idea, Jack.. To show your displeasure with those "loud, life saving pipes" the next time a group of riders show up at your campground, just advise those bikers that loud pipes are not allowed on your property and turn them away.. How's that going to work for you ? Bill Walker Irving, Tx.. > Having run a chipper before, I can testify that you're not going to > run a whole tree through one in a few minutes unless it's one of > those huge commercial jobs. If it's the Troy-bilt variety, it's > going to take a while. If it has a 6 cylinder diesel engine, it > goes a little faster. I'm talking the industrial jobs like those used by the highway department and professional tree removal services. They are loud when they are running and even louder when a 12 inch log is tossed into the hopper. They can eat an entire 60' pine tree in a couple hours. But early on a Saturday morning that is a f.cking eternity. >> A bike is gone in less than half a minute. > > Unless it's a Harley... Hardly matters ;-) Seriously though. At 30 mph it's a half mile away in 30 seconds. >>Besides, most bikes seem to be running quieter exhaust >>systems than a lot of other vehicles. > > Bullshit. I doubt my bike is the exception to the rule. You gotta wind it out to make it loud. >> And when they are loud, it's because they are going fast. > > Bullshit. Trust me. Those catalytic exhausts are very effective compared to an open can. If you are hearing loud bikes built since 2006, they are probably running aftermarket exhaust. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle >I'm talking the industrial jobs like those used by the highway >department and professional tree removal services. They are loud when >they are running and even louder when a 12 inch log is tossed into the >hopper. I've never run a 12" log through a portable chipper. I have run a 500 hp chipper at work. 12" logs go through that one like match sticks. It has a flywheel with knives spaced around it like spokes. The flywheel is 6" thick and about 6' in diameter. It's belt driven by a huge electric motor. Takes it quite a while to get up to speed but once it does, nothing stops it. I ran one last year that had a 6 cylinder Ford diesel engine. It chipped an entire 30' apple tree, limbs and all, in about 30 seconds. I chipped a whole pickup load of apple and pecan chips. That's enough chips to smoke pork and beef for years. Commercial tree trimmers shouldn't leave one of those parked on my Dad's farm if they don't want it used after they leave. >They can eat an entire 60' pine tree in a couple hours. But early on >a Saturday morning that is a f.cking eternity. As long as you're up, you might as well take a ride. ;-) >Seriously though. At 30 mph it's a half mile away >in 30 seconds. Unless it breaks. > If you are hearing loud bikes built since 2006, they are >probably running aftermarket exhaust. Bingo. Nobody has the right to make that much noise. -- Jack >> Having run a chipper before, I can testify that you're not going to >> run a whole tree through one in a few minutes unless it's one of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >they are running and even louder when a 12 inch log is tossed into the >hopper. Every time I see the word, I think about the guys who were working on the street by my buddy's house. One of the guys dropped his glove and reached in to get it. Instant tomato soup. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >> I would be curious to know if the revenue >> exceeds the administrative costs. > > Absolutely it does. That is why so many towns like to hand out such big > fines. It's the ancient economic niche of highway robbery, appropriated > by the governments. Not sure that is really the case. My understanding is that with current costs and labor rates, even if the LEO is doing nothing but traffic stops its not a break even proposition. You have to include court costs and training, equipment, dept overhead etc. It also means that every time he goes to court, normally takes 1/2 day) the revenue loss is so high that he would never go. LEOs not showing up in court is contempt...eventually the judges will tire of that. Yes there have been small town ticket mills. but by an large those are a thing of the past. Speed traps are now well publicized. What the THP is doing on the Dragon was on the net the day it started and heavily discussed at variously lodging and gathering places nearby. >> Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky >> Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > out tickets saves lives. I would be curious to know if the revenue > exceeds the administrative costs. There have been protests raised via merchants, but from what I can see the tickets are being given in Tenn. and most of the revenue is in NC. >>> Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky >>> Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving >>> lives" are BS. >> >> Perhaps not. I wonder if any credible study exists that shows handing >> out tickets saves lives. How else would you recommend getting people to obey trafic laws ? > I would be curious to know if the revenue >> exceeds the administrative costs. > >There have been protests raised via merchants, but from what I can see the >tickets are being given in Tenn. and most of the revenue is in NC. SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>>> Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky >>>> Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How else would you recommend getting people to obey trafic > laws ? I'm talking about saving lives. You're talking about obedience to traffic laws. Those are too different things so your question is a non sequitur. But on a stretch of road like the tail of the dragon, I expect Darwin can sort them out. SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle > >>>> Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky > >>>> Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > But on a stretch of road like the tail of the dragon, I expect Darwin > can sort them out. The problem with that solution is that there is no way to breed for luck. Despite all your years of training, observational powers, reaction time, and finely honed riding skills, some squid could take you out around a blind corner. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. > The problem with that solution is that there is no way to breed for > luck. Despite all your years of training, observational powers, reaction > time, and finely honed riding skills, some squid could take you out > around a blind corner. That's true. And so can a deer. I just don't see the connection between strict traffic code enforcement and saving lives. How does getting ticketed for ten over save your life? SignatureEthics are so annoying I avoid them on principle .. ... ... ..., but from what I can see the tickets are being given in Tenn. and most of the revenue is in NC. --------------------------------------- you hit the nail on the head with that one. its all about the money. tax collectors in uniiforms with guns. all the sh.t happens on the TN side but, NC is cashing in. TN wants to change that. >> >>> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a >> >>> very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving > lives" are BS. Really? So you are saying that BS tickets are as valid a means of solving traffic problems as (I apologize in advance) as the war on drugs is for reducing drug addictions? That was stinky and probably unfair but it was the best example I could think of with less a one cup of coffee. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. >> >>> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's >> >>> a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving > lives" are BS. One of the tickets was for a license plate mounted vertically, not horizontal. The bike had come from the factory that way. Citations for temp tags from out of state as well. Not things that "save lives". >> Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky >> Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving >> lives" are BS. > >One of the tickets was for a license plate mounted vertically, not >horizontal. The bike had come from the factory that way. I'm pretty sure the cops on the road don't write the laws, and they're not supposed to pick and choose which ones to enforce. I suspect that in most states, the law says the plate must be mounted horizontally, and that would make it pretty f.cking stupid for a manufacturer to design one vertical. > Citations for >temp tags from out of state as well. Not things that "save lives". It seems to me that the last thing I want on the road is someone on a bike so new to them that they don't even have plates yet, going out of state to the Ricky Racer hot spot to play with the new toy at speed. SignatureClick here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ >>> Well, I suspect that the people who go to places like the Great Smoky >>> Mountains for a nice quiet weekend don't think that tickets for "saving [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'm pretty sure the cops on the road don't write the laws, and > they're not supposed to pick and choose which ones to enforce. Yet they do every day. 2nd hand quotes in other forumsand from some who received tickets indicate that there has been top level direction to cite for everything > I suspect that in most states, the law says the plate must be > mounted horizontally, and that would make it pretty f.cking stupid for > a manufacturer to design one vertical. Giving fixit tickets to out of state motorists is a scam >> Citations for >>temp tags from out of state as well. Not things that "save lives". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > going out of state to the Ricky Racer hot spot to play with the new > toy at speed. Actually it was for a semi custom chopper. Owner was scarcely a newbie. Note that some states take up to 90 days to get the permanent tag to the owner. What I see on the Dragon on the weekends is a mix of Ricky Racers, cruisers, sporty cars, and the occasional touring bike. No one group is dominant. >>>> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's a >>>> very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is race from [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It was scary how high the LEO presence was and the level of BS infractions. Please make a short list of those. I forgot to reply for some dumb reason...probably out baiting lunatics again. ( it's a hobby ) SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. >>>>> POS harley??? Heh. If you ever ride the dragon, you'll see that it's >>>>> a very narrow, very old two lane road. All the rice rockets do is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Please make a short list of those. I forgot to reply for some dumb > reason...probably out baiting lunatics again. ( it's a hobby ) tailofthedragon.com has more than a few rants and is a good place to start People I saw with citations included: - vertical license plate - paper tags - loud pipes (when they were factory) Things I heard about were: - Loud pipes - Repetitive doc checks/not accepting some out of state docs - Speeding citation while it was not possible - Citations for having helmet shields up or not having proof eye protection was certified While I was there I saw no passing on the Dragon or anything approaching unsafe speed, both of which have been prevalent in prior visits. I did see LEOs doing things that the rest of use would have been cited for over the line, excessive speed...), and all of the turnouts were filled with LEO vehicles, precluding a motorist who needed to from pulling over. The bottom line is that THP may claim they are helping things, but strongly doubt there will be a material change in stats except lost revenue and high net policing costs. :My OGL1L IS a rice rocket and not some POS harley ridden poorly by someone who :isn't good just lucky. Aw comon! You could write a better troll than that. -- > :My OGL1L IS a rice rocket and not some POS harley ridden poorly by > someone who > :isn't good just lucky. > > Aw comon! You could write a better troll than that. I'm not so sure he can. I tend to think that one maxed out his ability. SignatureWayne AH52 The road goes on forever > :My OGL1L IS a rice rocket and not some POS harley ridden poorly by someone > who > :isn't good just lucky. > > Aw comon! You could write a better troll than that. I could if I were trolling. BUT...I was stating facts and I didn't point a finger at the poster. I was pointing at EXACTLY the kind of c.nt I described. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. :I could if I were trolling. BUT... You failed miserably. -- > :I could if I were trolling. BUT... > > You failed miserably. Nope I was not trolling I was completely honest. I am positive that Pieface can ride the wheels off his Harley and I've complete faith in his skills and abilities on said bike. You are thinking too hard...remember sometimes a cigar is JUST a cigar. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. :Nope I was not trolling Not only does your trolling suck, your denials leave much to be desired as well. -- > :Nope I was not trolling > > Not only does your trolling suck, your denials leave much to be > desired as well. Well all I can say then is tough sh.t. I was honest and if you can't take it then either f.ck off or plonk I could give the southern quarters of a north bound moose what you think I meant. SignatureKeith Schiffner Reality is motorcycles all else is fantasy. If you don't want to give her a hard ride you aren't a real man. Straight or gay she gets your to grinning and acting like a fool kid. :Well all I can say then is tough sh.t. I was honest and if you can't take it :then either f.ck off or plonk I could give the southern quarters of a north :bound moose what you think I meant. It's not working. -- |
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