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Motorcycle Forum / General / Motorcycles / August 2007Is It Normal to Be Hard to Get into a Specific Gear?
I have a Honda VT600C. I'm a first-time rider. Every once in a while when I downshift without re-engaging the clutch, i.e. a)Pull clutch handle in. b)4 -> 3 c)3 -> 2 d)2->1 e)Let clutch handle out to get started from a stop. The shift from 2nd gear to 1st is difficult or impossible. I can make it happen by engaging the clutch slightly (in 2nd gear) then disengaging the clutch and shifting down to 1st. It doesn't happen if I engage the clutch in 2nd then disengage it and shift to 1st. I get the feeling that some gears need to synchronize internally. Is this normal? Can bike transmissions need a bit of finesse? Thanks.  SignatureDavid T. Ashley (dta@e3ft.com) http://www.e3ft.com (Consulting Home Page) http://www.dtashley.com (Personal Home Page) http://gpl.e3ft.com (GPL Publications and Projects) > I have a Honda VT600C. I'm a first-time rider. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It doesn't happen if I engage the clutch in 2nd then disengage it and shift > to 1st. Are you rolling or stopped when you do this? Tim >> I have a Honda VT600C. I'm a first-time rider. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Are you rolling or stopped when you do this? I've never thought about it (i.e. I'd have to ride my bike and watch what I do). I'm definitely rolling for the 4->3 transition, but for the others I'm not sure. I may be stopped when I try 2->1. Could you let me know your thoughts? Would rolling vs. not rolling make a difference? Thanks. SignatureDavid T. Ashley (dta@e3ft.com) http://www.e3ft.com (Consulting Home Page) http://www.dtashley.com (Personal Home Page) http://gpl.e3ft.com (GPL Publications and Projects) (I guess it CAN be hard to get a simple, straight forward answer here at times.......well, most of the time) > I'm definitely rolling for the 4->3 transition, but for the others I'm not > sure. I may be stopped when I try 2->1. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is this normal? Can bike transmissions need a bit of finesse? Yes, yes, yes and yes. The answer to ALL of your questions is: YES! ;-) While it is best to complete all the shifts before coming to a complete stop, it is NOT really a problem if you don't. You have already discovered the "fix" so you're good to go. > <tomor...@erols.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Could you let me know your thoughts? Would rolling vs. not rolling make a > difference? Yes, motorcycle transmissions shift better (up and down) when the motorcycle is moving. It's typically harder, and with some bikes, much harder to make multiple downshifts (or even the single downshift from second to first) AFTER stopping than while rolling to a stop. You do NOT have to let the clutch out after every single downshift, although there is nothing wrong with doing so, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with downshifting, letting the clutch out, and using engine braking to adjust your speed as you approach a stop. Especially if you predict that traffic is going to begin rolling and you won't have to come to a complete stop, letting the clutch out after each downshift ensures that you are in the right gear to roll on the throttle and accelerate away when the time comes. If you choose to do multiple downshifts with the clutch pulled in, wait until you are at or near the proper road speed for the FINAL downshift before doing your downshifts. IOW, if you're slowing from 60 to 10, and downshifting from fifth to second, squeeze in your clutch, brake (or coast, or however you're slowing, preferably NOT by dragging your feet) and wait until you're under 20 mph, say 12-15, to do your downshift 5-4-3-2. You don't want to be in 2nd gear while you're still doing 60mph! Tim >> > Are you rolling or stopped when you do this? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Yes, motorcycle transmissions shift better (up and down) when the > motorcycle is moving. It's typically harder, and with some bikes ... I took the bike out for a spin. I was apparently doing some shifts after I was stopped. If I do the shifts with the bike rolling, it seems to work fine (no issues). That behavior makes sense to me. With the clutch handle pulled in, it would make it easier to mesh gears if the back end of the transmission is still being turned. The suggestions about what speeds to shift at were understood. Amazing to me that I had to go out riding to find out what I was doing (and didn't know from memory). SignatureDavid T. Ashley (dta@e3ft.com) http://www.e3ft.com (Consulting Home Page) http://www.dtashley.com (Personal Home Page) http://gpl.e3ft.com (GPL Publications and Projects) > You don't want to be in 2nd gear while you're still doing 60mph! I donno... My bike seems to handle 60 mph in 2nd pretty well... When I wanna gitty-up and go, I'm passing ~50 mph when shifting from 1st to 2nd... 3rd will take me over 100mph well before hitting redline. :) SignatureRCOS #7 IBA# 11465 http://imagesdesavions.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >My bike seems to handle 60 mph in 2nd pretty well... What happens if you're doing 60 in 5th and shift down to 2nd before releasing the clutch? -- Jack >>My bike seems to handle 60 mph in 2nd pretty well... > >What happens if you're doing 60 in 5th and shift down to 2nd before releasing >the clutch? Nothing. Until you release the clutch, at which point your rear wheel moves abruptly to the side, your front wheel attempts to leave the ground, and little bits of metal spontaneously emerge from the bike and go in random directions. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer > >>My bike seems to handle 60 mph in 2nd pretty well... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ground, and little bits of metal spontaneously emerge from the bike > and go in random directions. <VVBG> SignatureBMW K1100LT 750SS CB400F CD250 CB125 SL125 GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3 BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells..... > >My bike seems to handle 60 mph in 2nd pretty well... > > What happens if you're doing 60 in 5th and shift down to 2nd before releasing > the clutch? Well ... In article <13daubrqcqb3935@corp.supernews.com>, "Thumper" <roadapple@unclewebster.com> wrote: > Exploded transmissions? I've had a few of those. > > T. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. >>My bike seems to handle 60 mph in 2nd pretty well... > > What happens if you're doing 60 in 5th and shift down to 2nd before > releasing the clutch? The bike slows down, of course... SignatureRCOS #7 IBA# 11465 http://imagesdesavions.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I have a Honda VT600C. I'm a first-time rider. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks. Try double clutching. If you know your ratios you should be able to shift without the clutch just by varying the engine speed. Speed the engine up until it pops into first, then back off the throttle. >Try double clutching. Double clutching is a technique originally developed by truckers for shifting a crash box which has neutral between each gears and no synchromesh. Double clutching doesn't work with sequential shift transmissions, except perhaps to help the rider take a little more time his downshifts On Aug 28, 1:07 pm, Punjab The Sailor Man <boobooililili...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I have a Honda VT600C. I'm a first-time rider. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > shift without the clutch just by varying the engine speed. Speed the > engine up until it pops into first, then back off the throttle.- Hide quoted text - Please do not follow this advice. >I have a Honda VT600C. I'm a first-time rider. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Is this normal? Can bike transmissions need a bit of finesse? If it's a problem, then, it's a clutch problem, not a transmission problem. Normally grinding or having trouble downshifting into first is a speed or RPM thing. All my bikes have ground into first, at one time of another. Usually, It's my fault. SignatureBy it's very nature, my sig. makes this posting 100% on topic. "Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I posted this." Thumper "I don't want a pickle..." http://www.thumpers-roadhouse.ws 2006 VRSCA V-Rod 2006 XB12X Buell Ulysees 2006 BMW K1200GT 2004 H-D Road King Classic 1978 Triumph T140V Bonneville 1975 Triumph T160 Trident 1974 Norton Commando Interstate 1969 BSA R75 Red Rocket III 1962 Triumph T20 Tiger Cub 1958 BSA Super Bantam COCK 1954 Velocette MAC > Thanks. >All my bikes have ground into first, at one time of another. >Usually, It's my fault. Yabbot, you have all those old Brit crocks. There was something about the transmission design that wouldn't let it shift without grinding unless the engine was at idle. Husqvarna dirt bikes of the 1970's were based on a British design with a grindy transmission that had to be upshifted at idle RPM. Ossas and Greeves were like that too. I could pull out distance in a desert race or motocross on my Yamaha because I could upshift without waiting for the engine to idle down. >>All my bikes have ground into first, at one time of another. >>Usually, It's my fault. > > Yabbot, you have all those old Brit crocks. There was something about the > transmission design that wouldn't let it shift without grinding unless the > engine was at idle. Funny, even after all these years, a 1974 Norton still shifts smoother than a 2006 BMW. Thumper > Husqvarna dirt bikes of the 1970's were based on a British design with a > grindy transmission that had to be upshifted at idle RPM. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because > I could upshift without waiting for the engine to idle down. > >>All my bikes have ground into first, at one time of another. > >>Usually, It's my fault. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Funny, even after all these years, a 1974 Norton still shifts smoother than > a 2006 BMW. BMW transmissions are a safety feature! When I'm slilently gliding along a downtown street and pedestrians can't hear my BMW's loud sewing machine noises, I just shift a gear. The sudden CLUNK! echoing off the concrete canyon walls warns them of my approach. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. > Funny, even after all these years, a 1974 Norton still shifts smoother than > a 2006 BMW. A Spagthorpe with the patented broomstick gear lever would shift smoother than a 2006 BMW.... SignatureBMW K1100LT 750SS CB400F CD250 CB125 SL125 GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3 BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells..... In article <1i3mhad.45e2fc119vcxhN%chateau.murray.takethisout@dsl.pipex.com>, > > Funny, even after all these years, a 1974 Norton still shifts smoother than > > a 2006 BMW. > > A Spagthorpe with the patented broomstick gear lever would shift > smoother than a 2006 BMW.... It's hard to get into a Spagthorpe Mastiff no matter what gear it's in. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. >In article ><1i3mhad.45e2fc119vcxhN%chateau.murray.takethisout@dsl.pipex.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >It's hard to get into a Spagthorpe Mastiff no matter what gear it's in. The only Mastiff I am familiar with, if you've got a broom stick stuck up it's transmission, you're only chance of living is to not let go of that stick! Ben > The only Mastiff I am familiar with, if you've got a broom stick stuck up it's > transmission, you're only chance of living is to not let go of that stick! Now, *THAT* was funny. Thanks for the laugh! Is It Normal to Be Hard to Get into a Specific Gear? The answer is "yes", because you're operating the transmission incorrectly. >Every once in a while when I downshift without re-engaging the clutch, i.e. Well, STOP DOING THAT, unless you're in a panic stop and you have to use all your attention to braking. >The shift from 2nd gear to 1st is difficult or impossible. I can make it >happen by engaging the clutch slightly (in 2nd gear) then disengaging the >clutch and shifting down to 1st. Well, that's what you're supposed to do. >I get the feeling that some gears need to synchronize internally. I have never seen a motorcycle transmission yet that had synchronizer cones to match gear speeds by slowing one gear down and speeding another gear up. What you have to do is downshift while blipping the throttle and working the clutch lever to raise the engine speed just enough to get the slots in some gears aligned with the dogs on the adjacent gear. >Is this normal? Yes. >Can bike transmissions need a bit of finesse? Yes and No. Depends on the size of the engine and the spacing of the gears. With small engines around 600cc and under, you can shift up and down through the upper gears without using the clutch because the engine doesn't have a lot of flywheel inertia. Bigger bikes, 750cc and up will make a loud CLUNK when you shift from 1st to 2nd, so riders will short shift into 2nd as soon as the bike gets rolling and then they would use the upper gears, 2nd through 5th or 6th. Here are some pictures of how your transmission works: http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/ShowSchematic.aspx?deptId=1 199466&machineId=2853 #6 shows the typical slots the dogs have to go into to engage a gear. #9 shows engagement dogs (actually #9 would engage with #12, #10 with #14) http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/ShowSchematic.aspx?deptId=1 200730&machineId=2853 #1, #2 shifter forks follow the grooves in the shifter drum as it rotates and the shifter forks slide some gears sideways to engage the dogs in the slots #5 cam has the same spacing between all the gears, with neutral between 1st and 2nd, so you have to remember to move the shifter twice as far as you would move it going from 2nd to third, etc. #6 stopper wheel holds the shifter drum in whatever position it was in when you shifted gears last. > Here are some pictures of how your transmission works: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > #6 stopper wheel holds the shifter drum in whatever position it was in when > you shifted gears last. Well, those are exploded diagrams of the parts. This hows how the shifting mechanism works: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/hondaCB1/transmission.html SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you. >> Here are some pictures of how your transmission works: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/hondaCB1/transmission.html Exploded transmissions? I've had a few of those. T. |
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