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Motorcycle Forum / General / Motorcycles / April 2008Chain Life Question
Put the Honda Shadow 600 up on the motorcycle/ATV jack (*) using hockey pucks (*) to jack it on the frame only, then adjusted the chain (*), lubed it, and adjusted the rear brake (*). Actually used a torque wrench (*) with a crowfoot extension (*) in the process. (*) = operations that are high-tech by my standards and tax the limits of my mechanical ability. Noticed that with 6,300 miles on the bike, the rear axle adjustment is creeping towards the zone marked as chain replacement. I'd guess that the chain will need to be replaced around 10,000 miles. Questions: a)What is normal chain life? b)Anything that can be done to slow down the wear on a chain? Thanks. > Put the Honda Shadow 600 up on the motorcycle/ATV jack (*) using hockey > pucks (*) to jack it on the frame only, then adjusted the chain (*), [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thanks. 10000 isn't very good. 20K is more like it. Less on powerful liter-class sportbikes. I've never replaced a chain due to stretching. The chain is worn out when the links kink up. To preserve life, oil regularly and ride like a grandma. > 10000 isn't very good. 20K is more like it. Less on powerful > liter-class sportbikes. Wrong. Vee-twins tend to give chains a hard time because of the power pulses. My Ducati eats a chain every 9-10k. My old Triumph 1200 Trophy used to get 20k from a chain. There are too many variables, anyway, to give a hard and fast figure, but singles and vees, by and large, chew chains up faster than fours.  SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." > Noticed that with 6,300 miles on the bike, the rear axle adjustment is > creeping towards the zone marked as chain replacement. I'd guess that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > a)What is normal chain life? 10k's definitely a little short, although I do know people who routinely replace chains somewhere in the 10-15k range just as a matter of preventive maintenance, rather than waiting for the thing to get to the limits or break on the road. But - are you sure your chain is actually that worn/"stretched"? And what do the sprockets look like? > b)Anything that can be done to slow down the wear on a chain? Besides keeping a proper eye on the tension, the most obvious question is - what are you doing in terms of cleaning and lubing it? Bob M. >> Noticed that with 6,300 miles on the bike, the rear axle adjustment is >> creeping towards the zone marked as chain replacement. I'd guess that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the road. But - are you sure your chain is actually that > worn/"stretched"? And what do the sprockets look like? The index marks on the swingarm at the rear axle have a green bar and a red bar. The green bar represents the normal adjustments as the chain and sprockets age. The red bar represents when the chain and sprockets need to be replaced. The axle position ain't too far from the red bar. I'm not sure how long it will take to reach it. My guess at 10,000 miles is very subjective. I'm not sure how long it will take to get to the red bar. It could make it to 15,000 miles. I'm pretty sure it won't make it to 20,000 miles. 10,000 miles is a subjective guess. Driven sprocket looks fine. Drive sprocket not visible. >> b)Anything that can be done to slow down the wear on a chain? >> > Besides keeping a proper eye on the tension, the most > obvious question is - what are you doing in terms of > cleaning and lubing it? I've been oiling it with 90-weight gear oil maybe every 500 miles. Tonight, since I now have an ATV jack, I jacked it up, started the bike and put it in first gear so the rear wheel would spin free and off the ground, and sprayed the chain thoroughly with chain lube. Anything else I should do besides spraying it with chain lube? >>> Noticed that with 6,300 miles on the bike, the rear axle adjustment is >>> creeping towards the zone marked as chain replacement. I'd guess that [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Anything else I should do besides spraying it with chain lube? 90-weight gear oil is not chain lube; most modern chain lubes have a waxy component to prevent dirt from sticking as well as not being thrown off by the motion of the chain when driving. I don't care if the manufacturer of your bike had gear oil as the lube reco - it's gear oil and not chain lube. > 90-weight gear oil is not chain lube; most modern chain lubes have a waxy > component to prevent dirt from sticking as well as not being thrown off by > the motion of the chain when driving. YMMV. You got part of that right. With chain wax, it practically ensures that any dirt, grime, sand, etc. that sticks will NEVER come off........without difficult and time consuming cleaning. I prefer oil. If we're talking O-ring chains here, the lube applied only functions between the rollers and the sprockets....and maybe to help keep the rings "wet". I have a suspicion that most people WAY overlubricate, regardless of which product is used. >> 90-weight gear oil is not chain lube; most modern chain lubes have a waxy >> component to prevent dirt from sticking as well as not being thrown off [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "wet". I have a suspicion that most people WAY overlubricate, regardless > of which product is used. I have found that if I let the lube dry (harden, ossify) I don't seem to get a great deal of dirt buildup. I also predate the advent of sealed chains and don't have a ton of experience with the capability that is now in place. > I have found that if I let the lube dry (harden, ossify) I don't seem to > get a great deal of dirt buildup. I know that logic has little place in most of "these" discussions but............ Logic tends to make me believe anything that acts as you describe can't be providing much lubrication. ;-) >> I have found that if I let the lube dry (harden, ossify) I don't seem to >> get a great deal of dirt buildup. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Logic tends to make me believe anything that acts as you describe can't be > providing much lubrication. ;-) Most of the "Dry Lubes" seem to leave a slippery residue of graphite and/or molybdenum disulphide so that you don't get as much dirt sticking but still get a good lubrication. >>> Noticed that with 6,300 miles on the bike, the rear axle adjustment is >>> creeping towards the zone marked as chain replacement. I'd guess that [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Anything else I should do besides spraying it with chain lube? David, I was wondering if you adjusted the chain with the bike lifted. Most bikes that I am familiar with specify the chain be checked with the weight of the bike on it's wheels. The reason for this is that the chain will usually be more slack when lifted. If this is the case, you may be over tightening the chain which will accelerate wear on not only the chain and sprockets but, the trans and wheel bearings as well as the swing arm bearings. I do watch for indications of an unevenly worn chain with the bike lifted. I use a small hydraulic jack to lift the rear of the bike to lube the chain. I use an aerosol penetrating chain lube on the chain as I spin the wheel by hand to make sure every link is soaked and watch the chain for even tracking. Also, it has been my experience that 90 wt gear oil is not that long lasting and needs to be replenished at least every couple hundred miles on dry roads and 100 miles or less if riding in the rain. A good penetrating chain lube or wax for motorcycles is a far better way to go and last much longer between applications. I tend to look at my chain before every trip no matter how short. If the chain is getting "dry" it needs to be lubed to reduce wear on the sprockets if nothing else. Many factory chains like the one on your Honda are more or less sealed with o'rings to keep dirt out. They are usually lubed before assembly. In order to replenish the factory lubricant, you need to use a good penetrating chain lube and give it time to penetrate and the solvent vaporize before riding. 90 wt just does not penetrate by the o'rings into the link pins as well as the chain lubes. In my old Triumph factory manual, it specified that the chain be removed from the machine every 500 miles and submerged in hot 90 wt for a couple of hours. When removed, wipe the excess and allow to cool before installing. Additional applications were recommended every 200 miles - and those were not sealed chains! Lastly, it has been my experience that a properly adjusted chain will run much quieter and the trans will shift better. Lugnut > I was wondering if you adjusted the chain with the bike > lifted. Most bikes that I am familiar with specify the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the chain and sprockets but, the trans and wheel bearings as > well as the swing arm bearings. The manual specifies to do the adjustment with the bike on the ground. I did it lifted (because I was unaware of the information you presented). However, the resulting slack, measured with the wheel on the ground and bearing weight, is still within the range specified by Honda (0.75 - 1.25 inches). Wrong method, accidentally correct result. > I do watch for indications > of an unevenly worn chain with the bike lifted. I use a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > has been my experience that a properly adjusted chain will > run much quieter and the trans will shift better. Thanks for all the info. >> I was wondering if you adjusted the chain with the bike >> lifted. Most bikes that I am familiar with specify the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bearing weight, is still within the range specified by Honda (0.75 - 1.25 > inches). Wrong method, accidentally correct result. I think the Harley manual for the Electra Glide says to have someone sitting on the bike when making the drive belt adjustment. That they expect you to make it a two man job bugs me. >> I do watch for indications >> of an unevenly worn chain with the bike lifted. I use a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Thanks for all the info. My 1992 Nighthawk manual recommended lubing every 500 mies with 90W. I tried some Honda spray-on chain lube that dried sticky, but I didn't like it because found that stickiness collected dirt and was very difficult to remove. Using the 90W made it easy to clean the chain. Till I got lazy, I've set the bike on its centerstand, rotate the rear wheel, and clean the dirty oil off the chain by brushing the chain with a paint brush full of soapy water. Once cleaned, I'd do a rinse (pour water over the rear sprocket while rotating) and let it dry overnight (it was a garaged bike). The next morning I used a rag soaked with 90W to oil the chain back up. The surface rust from the dousing with water was very minimal. It was an o-ring chain so the innerds of the links were protected from me. I skipped the cleaning part after getting lazy and just applied 90W with a rag. I got a bike with a shaft after getting too lazy to even lube and adjust the chain. Now I'm back to a belt drive that has to be adjusted, but at least it doesn't have to be lubed. Robert > I think the Harley manual for the Electra Glide says to have someone > sitting on the bike when making the drive belt adjustment. That they > expect you to make it a two man job bugs me. Yeah, tell me about it. In my case, after adjusting the chain and tightening the axle nut enough to hold its position, I found that with the bike on a jack I couldn't get a torque wrench on the axle nut even with a crowfoot extension (muffler in the way). I ended up sitting backwards on the bike and putting most of my weight on the seat to compress the suspension to bring the axle nut up while holding a wrench in my right hand and a torque wrench in the other hand and torqueing it down to its final value of 65 ft-lbs. If it weren't for the torque aspect of it, an ordinary wrench fits fine under the muffler. > If it weren't for the torque aspect of it, an ordinary wrench fits fine > under the muffler. You really don't need a torque wrench for wheel nuts. At least, I have not used one in 30 years of spannering something like 300 bikes, and never had a problem. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >> If it weren't for the torque aspect of it, an ordinary wrench fits fine >> under the muffler. > > You really don't need a torque wrench for wheel nuts. At least, I have > not used one in 30 years of spannering something like 300 bikes, and > never had a problem. Many of the newer riders don't have the benefit of having learned mechanics at an early age and are unable to perform work without guidance on fastener torque. I saw a request in another group for the torque settings on the seat bolts for a 2007 Truimph Bonneville. > Many of the newer riders don't have the benefit of having learned mechanics > at an early age and are unable to perform work without guidance on fastener > torque. I saw a request in another group for the torque settings on the > seat bolts for a 2007 Truimph Bonneville. Fine, fine. Wheel nuts: just do 'em up to a grunt and a half. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >>> If it weren't for the torque aspect of it, an ordinary wrench fits fine >>> under the muffler. >> >> You really don't need a torque wrench for wheel nuts. At least, I have >> not used one in 30 years of spannering something like 300 bikes, and >> never had a problem. My personality type would naturally seek out the manufacturer's torque, anyway ... but besides that the owner's manual makes a big deal out of it. In the section under emergency repairs (like if you have to swap out a wheel on the road or remove it to do something) they make a big point to say that if you don't secure it with a torque wrench, seek out a dealership as soon as possible and have them torque it to spec. There is a tool in the tool kit that will fit the rear axle ... I've never opened the tool kit that I remember ... but from the size of the pouch it can't have more than a 5-inch handle. Torqueing to 65 ft-lbs using a flat stamped tool with a 5-inch handle ain't gonna be easy. The owner's manual says that if you don't torque it enough and the rear axle slides forward, you could lose rear braking. They make a big deal out of it. > Many of the newer riders don't have the benefit of having learned > mechanics at an early age and are unable to perform work without guidance > on fastener torque. I saw a request in another group for the torque > settings on the seat bolts for a 2007 Truimph Bonneville. Well, using a well-defined torque on everything won't really do any harm, will it? I think it is a reasonable question, even for seat bolts. Overtorqueing them will definitely affect crash mechanics ... > In the section under emergency repairs (like if you have to swap out a wheel > on the road or remove it to do something) they make a big point to say that > if you don't secure it with a torque wrench, seek out a dealership as soon > as possible and have them torque it to spec. CYA. If they were even half-serious they'd say 'torque it yourself', but no, you have to take it to an approved dealer to tighten up a f.cking nut. For Christ's sake.... >There is a tool in the tool > kit that will fit the rear axle ... I've never opened the tool kit that I > remember ... but from the size of the pouch it can't have more than a 5-inch > handle. Torqueing to 65 ft-lbs using a flat stamped tool with a 5-inch > handle ain't gonna be easy. If you look in the kit, I guarantee you'll find a flat extension sleeve that is designed to fit the rear wheel spanner. > The owner's manual says that if you don't torque it enough and the rear axle > slides forward, you could lose rear braking. They make a big deal out of > it. This is just CYA and product liability. Really. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >>>> If it weren't for the torque aspect of it, an ordinary wrench fits fine >>>> under the muffler. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I think it is a reasonable question, even for seat bolts. Overtorqueing > them will definitely affect crash mechanics ... Do as you like; you should start to get a feel for what a proper tightness is in comparison with the recommended torque (Use The Force Luke...) - that way when you are 200 miles away from home and without your torque wrench (you DO leave home without it, don't you?) you will know what a properly tightened fastener is if you need to snug something up. And if you believe that the crash mechanics of your bike are affected more than a small amount by the torquing of your seat bolts then you really need to get out and ride more - you will be off the bike and sliding down the road before that becomes an issue that you need to worry about. BTW, how do you know that your torque wrench is accurate? Did you take it to your primary standards lab recently and get it calibrated? Also if you want to be totally anal about it you need to understand that the torque you are talking about is dependent on the lubrication of the threads of the fastener and whether there is a washer in the stack. Critical applications actually measure the stretch on the bolt to achieve the proper setting. "no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote > Also if you want to be totally anal about it ................ Too late! >>>> If it weren't for the torque aspect of it, an ordinary wrench fits fine >>>> under the muffler. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > axle slides forward, you could lose rear braking. They make a big deal > out of it. I don't remember what bike you have, but with a Nighthawk the chain adjusters will prevent the rear axle from sliding forward as they adjust the chain by pulling the axle back. The axle nut merely keeps the axle from wobbling around. A Nighthawk tool kit came with an axle bolt hand wrench. As TOG mentioned, tIghtening the axle bolt as tight as you can with that little wrench was adequate for the Nighthawk. I do use a torque wrench for the front wheel axle bolt, but a healthy tightening by hand without a torque wrench would be good enough. I wouldn't if I was on the road, though. The proof in the pudding is whether or not you experience problems. >> Many of the newer riders don't have the benefit of having learned >> mechanics at an early age and are unable to perform work without guidance [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think it is a reasonable question, even for seat bolts. Overtorqueing > them will definitely affect crash mechanics ... They'll rattle loose and maybe fall out if they're not tight enough. You'll ruin something during the tightening process if they're too tight, or you'll discover later on that you can't get the thing apart. Anything inbetween is good enough IMO for the most part. I don't believe you're off-base to worry about axle bolts. They are a critical feature. I torque my front axle in my garage but wouldn't hesitate to tighten by hand (really tight) and call it good on the field. Pretty much all other bolt on stuff such as seat, handlebars, footpegs, brake caliper, rotor, chain adjusters, and sidecovers get hand tightened without using a torque wrench. Nothing's fallen off or come loose,l and I've been able to get it part later. One thing you can do to get a feel for things is to use a torque wrench to tighten a bolt to spec, then use a regular wrench to loosen, tighten, then loosen again. The loosening part tells you how tight it was. Robert Robert >I do use a torque wrench for the front wheel axle bolt, but a healthy >tightening by hand without a torque wrench would be good enough. I wouldn't >if I was on the road, though. The proof in the pudding is whether or not >you experience problems. Or whether or not you twist the heads right off some bolts. The Japanese are known for using bolts that are *just* strong-enough for the job. > >I do use a torque wrench for the front wheel axle bolt, but a healthy > >tightening by hand without a torque wrench would be good enough. I wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Japanese are known for using bolts that are *just* strong-enough for > the job. They are? Says who? And this is a bad thing? SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >> >I do use a torque wrench for the front wheel axle bolt, but a healthy >> >tightening by hand without a torque wrench would be good enough. I wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >They are? Says who? Says me, who has twisted-off a bolt-head or two in his day. >And this is a bad thing? A matter of opinion, I suppose. Some would argue that the best engineering would optimize weight and cost by making bolts no stronger than what they need to be. Others would prefer more margin for error, for the torque-wrench impaired. > >> Or whether or not you twist the heads right off some bolts. The > >> Japanese are known for using bolts that are *just* strong-enough for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Says me, who has twisted-off a bolt-head or two in his day. I have too, but only on really old, corroded and stuck-fast bolts. > >And this is a bad thing? > > A matter of opinion, I suppose. Some would argue that the best > engineering would optimize weight and cost by making bolts no stronger > than what they need to be. Others would prefer more margin for error, > for the torque-wrench impaired. I don't think it's a problem, really. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." > I think the Harley manual for the Electra Glide says to have someone sitting > on the bike when making the drive belt adjustment. That they expect you to > make it a two man job bugs me. <Holds head in hands> Once you've done it once with the bike in the air, or with someone sitting on it, or whatever, there is *no need ever* to repeat that procedure. Think about it and see if you can figure out why. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >> I think the Harley manual for the Electra Glide says to have someone >> sitting [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Think about it and see if you can figure out why. Personally, I've already figured I'm not going to make two man job out of a chain/belt adjust even once. Robert > >> I think the Harley manual for the Electra Glide says to have someone > >> sitting [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Personally, I've already figured I'm not going to make two man job out of a > chain/belt adjust even once. Well, quite. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >The manual specifies to do the adjustment with the bike on the ground. I >did it lifted (because I was unaware of the information you presented). >However, the resulting slack, measured with the wheel on the ground and >bearing weight, is still within the range specified by Honda (0.75 - 1.25 >inches). Wrong method, accidentally correct result. If you are adjusting the chain with the bike raised, chances are that the resulting slack will be on the tight end of the spec. (.75). If you always adjust to the tight end of the spec, you can expect the chain to wear faster. I keep my chain at the loose end of the spec. I've only had to adjust it twice in 18K miles and it has a long way to go before it's worn out. John > If you always > adjust to the tight end of the spec, you can expect the chain to wear > faster. +1....You beat me to it. And I think most people tend to do that, not realizing that it is self-defeating. > +1....You beat me to it. > And I think most people tend to do that, not realizing that it is > self-defeating. Yeah, it's the eternal trade-off when you're tightening stuff; you can go on the tight side, which makes things a little less likely to come off but more likely to break from the stress and/or wear faster, or go the opposite way with the expected opposite results. In general, of course, and All Standard Disclaimers Continue to Apply... Bob M. >90 wt just does not penetrate by the o'rings into the link pins as well >as the chain lubes. I have news for you: chain lubes aren't supposed to penetrate the seals either. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." > Put the Honda Shadow 600 up on the motorcycle/ATV jack (*) using hockey > pucks (*) to jack it on the frame only, then adjusted the chain (*), lubed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > a)What is normal chain life? Got me. All my bikes have had shaft drives. > b)Anything that can be done to slow down the wear on a chain? My son uses "Chain Lube" once per week on his ZX6. It stays on the chain. Rust and lack of lubrication are enemies of your chain. Some months back I saw what a bad chain can do to bike... if you're lucky enough not to lock up the rear wheel, a bad chain (not lubricated as needed, kinked) can be thrown into the engine. In this case, there was a hole in the rear of the cylinder. As for chain wear, are you sure that indicator is not for your back drum brake wear? I don't see how they could measure chain wear by length since all chains stretch and can be tightened... unless it stretches so much it can no longer be tightened??? Greg > Thanks. >As for chain wear, are you sure that indicator is not for your back >drum brake wear? I don't see how they could measure chain wear by >length since all chains stretch and can be tightened... unless it >stretches so much it can no longer be tightened??? Yes, I'm sure. As one moves the rear axle aft to do the chain adjustment, it eventually gets into the red area where chain and sprocket replacement is recommended. I don't know from an engineering perspective how these decisions are made or whether length is a sane metric for chain replacement, but that is the way the bike is. Since it is my first motorcycle and since I have limited experience, I just do what the manual says and assume that the manufacturer is always right ... > a)What is normal chain life? Depends on the bike, the chain size, the engine configuration, the amount of driveline shock absorption (hint: my Duke has very little and eats chains), the amount of lube, and whether adjustment is performed regularly. > b)Anything that can be done to slow down the wear on a chain? Maintenance. And/or a Scottoiler. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." |
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