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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / December 2004



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CBR F4 Rough Idle / Tapping noise

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gimpy_phantom@hotmail.com - 15 Dec 2004 02:12 GMT
Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
killing the engine.  This only happens when the bike is warmed up.  I
have read somewhere that it is probably due to the regulator
rectifier.  Does this sound right?  Would a rectifier from a F4i fit
in my F4?  Also, my engine taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's.
Would a simple valve adjustment fix this?  I dont expierence any loss
in power or acceleration, but the tapping noise is really irritating.

Thanks in advance for your input.
Daniel Bannon - 15 Dec 2004 05:39 GMT
>Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
>or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Thanks in advance for your input.

Ticking: perhaps it's the cam chain tensioner.  Easy and inexpensive
fix.

Valve adjustment: depends when it was last done.  I'd stick to the
schedule on that.

Might want to think about a carb sync, too, for the rough idle.

Three places to start...

'-----------------------------------------------------
' Daniel Bannon
' NW WA State, U.S.A.
' 2003 ZX636B Hercusaki, 1999 CBR1100XX
'-----------------------------------------------------
M. J. Freeman - 15 Dec 2004 18:10 GMT
Daniel Bannon <daniel_r_bannon@hahtmail.dott.c0mm> posted in
alt.motorcycle.sportbike:

>>Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in
>>traffic, or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>this?  I dont expierence any loss in power or acceleration, but
>>the tapping noise is really irritating.
[...]
> Valve adjustment: depends when it was last done.  I'd stick to the
> schedule on that.

Badly out of spec valve clearances could lead to the poor idling when
hot, too.  I'd started with at least checking the lash.

Signature

Michael J. Freeman             mike_freeman@SPMBLOKmac.com
'85 VF700S (The Leper)                 Cincinnati, OH, USA
'83 VF750S (The Shiny Sabre)  "Insanity runs in the family
'99 GSF1200S (The Evil Bandit)  ...it practically gallops"

RA - 24 Dec 2004 14:11 GMT
DING DING DING....
Correct!!

> >Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
> >or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> ' 2003 ZX636B Hercusaki, 1999 CBR1100XX
> '-----------------------------------------------------
R kristafr - 15 Dec 2004 12:14 GMT
 If we assume its a charging problem, the aftermarket and OEM regulators are
the same, i believe.

heres my simple check, 1) fully charge battery. 2) start and check charging
across battery terminals, should be a higher number than the bat bike off,key
off, rev and @ 5k revs should be at its peak, as high as 14.5 volts dc.
3) unplug the stator to reg/rec and read the A/C volts should be about 60
volts on both sides.
4) check the diodes in the rectifer with a DVM on diode selection.

as for other possible "hot won't idle problems, these honda carbs are crappy
metering, and exhibit cold and hot problems,...   check the carb for over rich
at part throttle especially  in this order 1- float hieght (non adjustable) 2-
MJ 3- mixture screws, 4)needle hieght

and of course valve adjustment , one of my fave operations (sheee-it)

r kris

<< Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
killing the engine.  This only happens when the bike is warmed up.  I
have read somewhere that it is probably due to the regulator
rectifier.  Does this sound right?  Would a rectifier from a F4i fit
in my F4?  Also, my engine taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's.
Would a simple valve adjustment fix this?  I dont expierence any loss
in power or acceleration, but the tapping noise is really irritating.
Greek Shipping Magnets - 15 Dec 2004 16:30 GMT
>Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
>or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
>killing the engine.  This only happens when the bike is warmed up.

Lean jetting or EFI. Thanks to the EPA al motorcycles run like sh.t
and it only gets worse as things get hotter.

>in my F4?  Also, my engine taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's.
>Would a simple valve adjustment fix this?

The tapping is a fact of life. It means you still have adequate
clearance. Be wary when it goes away cause that means your valves have
closed up.
TaskMule - 15 Dec 2004 17:24 GMT
> >Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
> >or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
> >killing the engine.  This only happens when the bike is warmed up.
>
> Lean jetting or EFI. Thanks to the EPA al motorcycles run like sh.t
> and it only gets worse as things get hotter.

This statement is simply untrue. My bike runs flawlessly regardless of the
temprature.

> >in my F4?  Also, my engine taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's.
> >Would a simple valve adjustment fix this?
>
> The tapping is a fact of life. It means you still have adequate
> clearance. Be wary when it goes away cause that means your valves have
> closed up.

Again this is incorrect. "taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's" is not a
fact of life.
Greek Shipping Magnets - 15 Dec 2004 17:56 GMT
>This statement is simply untrue. My bike runs flawlessly regardless of the
>temprature.

>Again this is incorrect. "taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's" is not a
>fact of life.

All relative statements. To one unaccustomed to dealing with anything
other than factory fueling your bike does indeed run fine. But to a
trained ear you can hear the lean misfire and certainly feel the crap
throttle response in comparison to richer "jetting". Of course some
companies get it better than others. And the inclusion of catalysts in
the exhaust now means you can use richer fueling whilst still meeting
emissions specs. Just like swtiching to EFI meant you can stay
horribly lean in the testing zone and go rich elsewhere, something a
lot more difficult to tune on carbs.

Really hot days sitting in traffic will send the temp skyward. And
make the engine run rougher. More fuel will cool combustion down and
lower temps.

Complaining of tapping is common amongst the 600 crowd. They all do
that and most owners are newbies on their first bike hyperanalysing
everything to make sure their pride-n-joy is still intact.

A properly set up engine taps. Lower weight = less metal+insulation =
louder engine noises. Then again maybe you're not riding a race
replica 600 and don't know what you're talking about.  Looser
clearances ensure the valve seals shut and develops full compression.
If you bike is stone quiet then consider the fact that your wonderful
motorcycle is not sealing properly and the hot exhaust gasses are
weeping past the seat, toasting it and the valve extra crispy.

Of course right about now I expect someone from the "tight valves"
school of thought to come along and tell me I'm wrong. They'll argue
that closing up the clearance will acutate the valve infintesimally
sooner and thus advance the timing to gain performance. Nevermind that
you can accomplish the same thing by degreeing the cams. This is a
"free" .01 horsepower!
Daniel Bannon - 16 Dec 2004 01:43 GMT
>> >Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
>> >or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>This statement is simply untrue. My bike runs flawlessly regardless of the
>temprature.

Not necessarily: remember, in the U.S, many bikes are deliberately
leaned-out to meet EPA regs.  Happened all the time with carb'd bikes.

Case in point: my '95 Gixxer.  Cam timing was optimized to minimize
emissions.  I think stock it was 110 degrees intake, 106 exhaust.
This was not optimal for maximum-efficiency burn of the fuel-air
mixture, according to K.C. Gager, the guy who tuned my bike (and other
race bikes: the name's familiar to Bay Area readers).  He had facts
and numbers to back up the position, too.

With slotted cam sprockets, he solved the problem by setting both to
106 degrees, I believe.

Similar was occurring with the stock jetting, solved with a Factory
Stage III kit.

From Roadracing World, I'm reading they're a lot better these days
optimizing both emissions and engine efficiencies with modern engines
and EFI.  Still, the stock numbers might not be optimal.

In any case, if I'm not mistaken the bike in question isn't
fuel-injected anyway.

'-----------------------------------------------------
' Daniel Bannon
' NW WA State, U.S.A.
' 2003 ZX636B Hercusaki, 1999 CBR1100XX
'-----------------------------------------------------
Larry xlax Lovisone - 15 Dec 2004 17:24 GMT
This only happens when the bike is warmed up.  I
> have read somewhere that it is probably due to the regulator
> rectifier.  Does this sound right?  Would a rectifier from a F4i fit
> in my F4?

Weakest link in the system is the battery... last would be the rec reg...
make sure your battery is 100% before going into the charging system...

Also, my engine taps like crazy from 3000 to 5000 rpm's.
> Would a simple valve adjustment fix this?

It's not easy trouble shooting a ticking noise when you can't hear it
yourself... the first thing I would do is determine if the tick is in time
with the camshaft (1/2 crankshaft speed) or not...

Larry L
94 RC45 #2
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
Yank and bank your brains loose...
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/
http://www.fox302.com/index.pl?s=vg&user=netters2
dattaway@dattaway.org - 16 Dec 2004 01:15 GMT
> Can anyone help me with this problem.  When I ride my bike in traffic,
> or hot days, the idle becomes really rough... almost to the point of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Would a simple valve adjustment fix this?  I dont expierence any loss
> in power or acceleration, but the tapping noise is really irritating.

Yes, the bike will stumble from idle at intersections if the voltage is
low.  The ignition circuit really likes full battery voltage.

Try setting the idle adjustment screw up to 2,000 rpm.  When I put a
voltmeter on the battery of my cbr600f4, idle at 1,600 shows the battery
draining from a full charge until it dies.  Around 2,000 rpm, the
voltage starts to pass 13 volts, the point where a battery can start
charging.  

It wasn't always like this.  When my bike was new, the generator could
easily peak the battery at 1,400 rpm.  I guess the magnets got weak or
the regulator is shot.  I hooked up an oscilloscope to the battery and
found the regulator was a SCR circuit that is firing a little too late
on the rectified three phase waveform.  Connections are tight and
voltage drops are minimal, but for some reason, the charging system just
seems old and tired.  Oh well.

The ticking noise?  Oh, I know that well too!  My bike is a daily rider
and noticed the ticking completely disappears if I let the bike sit up
for a few weeks.  I've measured the valves dozens of times and this
ticking noise has completely evaded me.  Once when I tightened up the
pawl spring in the shifter to prevent missed 2nd gear shifts, the
ticking vanished.  Hell I don't know.  Its a Honda thing.  My cbr1000rr
does it too until I let it set for a few weeks.

Hope this helps.

Signature

-=Duane
http://dattaway.org

Larry xlax Lovisone - 16 Dec 2004 05:18 GMT
Hell I don't know.  Its a Honda thing.

It's not a Honda thing... it's a smog thing... you have a couple of clean air
injectors valves that work off of manifold pressure that may stick and click...
(note smog sh.t is Foo Foo Ra)... and it is written... one shall remove all Foo
Foo Ra from thier bike...

Larry L
94 RC45 #2
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
Yank and bank your brains loose...
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/
http://www.fox302.com/index.pl?s=vg&user=netters2


 
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