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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / February 2005Proper training?
We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about proper training... Interesting thought. What WOULD be the proper training for a 1000cc sportbike with 160hp and 0-60 times somewhere in the 2.5-3.5 second range? Let me try. These are listed as a step-by-step progression. No one step can stand alone. MSF - maybe - I don't think this is necessary. Minibikes at a young age. Small dirt/street bike @ 16 - a Honda 305 to be exact. First REAL street bike @ 18 - i.e. GS500, KLR650, DRZ400, ninja 500 maybe a track day or track school or 2 Several scars later - 600 hypersport - R6, CBR - more track schools If he's still alive - 1000 cc sportbike The person is 25 yrs old has had 15 years of experience and is probably ready to handle it as long as he doesn't get stupid. I skipped from the 305 right to a Goldwing in '76 and was smart enough not to crash or get killed... then I got skills. Post your own ideas on how to prepare these kids for bikes that could bury ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my > buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. > Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? When my son turned 15 I put him in the Motorcycle Safety Course. He had never ridden a motorcycle before and I didn't want him learning on mine. In Texas, you can get an unrestricted MC licence at age 15 for 250 CC or less motorcycles. I also made my son take an approved cage driver's training course before taking the MSF. My son took both courses and has been on the road with a bike ever since. I bought him a Ninja 250 which together, we put on 10,000 miles before we traded it in on an SV650 when he turned 16. When my son turned 17 we traded the SV on an SV1000 which he is riding at the present time. He has just turned 18 and is a senior in HS. Luckily, my son has never had a motorcylce accident and has thousands of miles under his belt from riding to school and numerous bike trips with myself. I let him ride my Hayabusa when we are together but not out by himself. A lot of people would think I'm nuts to let my son ride sportbikes at such an early age but since I have been riding motorcycles for 36 years and since I was his age I felt it would be two faced to not allow him the same privlidge. I belive that he is a much better cage driver as a result of his motorcycle skills. My son has not gotten any tickets in the last three years and I believe he is an excellent rider for his age. For the last two years we have taken a motorcyle trip during his spring breaks instead of a ski vacation that we did when he was younger. Of course, I worry about him when he is out on the bike alone and maybe one day I will highly regret ever letting him get his licence but I figured if I didn't he would have gone out and done it on his own and possibly without the MSF training or all the hours we have spent together on bike trips. I'm still amazed my Dad didn't say a word when I bought my Honda 305 Dream back in 1969. I remember the seller telling me "One down and three or four up" and that was the extent of my MSF course! Dave Pedersen 2003 Hayabusa 2003 Z1000 >When my son turned 15 I put him in the Motorcycle Safety Course. He had >never ridden a motorcycle before and I didn't want him learning on mine. In [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >in 1969. I remember the seller telling me "One down and three or four up" >and that was the extent of my MSF course! I'm getting ready to face the same thing with my son. Its good to have your insight. He'll be ready for a driving school soon. MSF training right away if he shows an interest does sounds like the best policy. Going on a motorcycle trip together with your son must be a great experience. -- John, '02 FZ1, '73 RD350 Miles from where I started > I'm getting ready to face the same thing with my son. Its good to have > your insight. He'll be ready for a driving school soon. MSF training [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Miles from where I started He He Well, I don't know if it is a great experience. My son complains like a bandit when we call it a night at the end of a day's ride and his friends aren't around or he doesn't have his guitar or computer games. One day though, he will get over that and have a good time just being with his old man hopefully. Riding bikes together has been a good way to finally do something we both enjoy. I was very nervous at first when he was first learning to ride but he came along fairly quickly and he seems to be as good as any of my other riding partners. Good luck with your son. Dave http://mysite.verizon.net/resoajzb/ They should make it much harder to obtain a license. I know in the state Im in currently the whole thing is a joke. They give license plates for bikes when the regestered rider doesn't have his 2wheel licence yet , it can be obtained by taking a 4hr class without a driving test. Insurance is not required , and all the cops never pull over any bike even if the guy is riding a wheely at 105mph and passes him on the shoulder "which I saw happen". > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my > buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. > Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? >We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my >buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. >Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? MSF I'm a strong believer in, personally it prepared me in a way I don't think anyone else could have, it was well worth every cent spent and then some. Next, I'd take out the age thing...hell I'm 24, I can't go back in time and get a bike when I was 16 =P I wish I did...but can't change it =) Other than that...your progression is pretty good though however I do believe it largely depends on the person. I think that as long as you're responsible enough, and respect the engine you're sitting on, you have a chance no matter what bike you start on. Me personally, a 250 or similar would be way too small for me. The R6 is just about right, I don't get in trouble with the throttle or clutch. And I'm not stupid enough to try to do 100+ down the highway. So as long as the invisible raised medians stay out of my way, I'm just fine =) From what I can tell, I don't think most people crash because of the size of the engine, yea it can be a factor if someone just really can't keep that throttle under control. But I think the larger factor more so than engine is just simple responsiblity. If you're riding a 1000 cc sportbike, doesn't mean you have to do 150 down the highway with it. But they do...and they learn that this was a mistake. But that's not the bikes fault, that's the riders fault for making a bad decision. And they can make that decision on a 1000 cc bike, or 600 cc bike. If you hit a car at 130mph or 150+mph, it isn't really gonna matter much. Well anyway, I'd say more but its 9am and I should be at work right now so...=) Stephan 2001 Yamaha YZF-R6 >>We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my >>buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > From what I can tell, I don't think most people crash because of the > size of the engine, Bingo. Give a young man high on testosterone a engineless skate board and watch him take to busting hisbadself up. Of the few guys I've mentored onto the scene in the last few years, the two guys on ZX-10s have yet to crash and ride regularly while the guy on the SV650 that has been to MSF and a trackday has a habit of dropping and crashing his bike. Another fellow on a VFR went though MSF and has had one low side incident. > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", > "my buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sportbike with 160hp and 0-60 times somewhere in the 2.5-3.5 second > range? > Post your own ideas on how to prepare these kids for bikes that could > bury ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. > Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? Yours is pretty close to mine. 6yo, first dirt bike. 6-12 - constant dirt riding 12-15 - rode BMX instead 16-18 - cars are everything 18 - 1st street bike, 200cc. Car sold. 20 - 400cc This old POS would blow away about any car. I still think a Ninja 500 is too much bike for a beginner based on this. 23 - 750cc 26 - 900cc - numerous track and skill schools 33 - 1000cc - lots of track riding 36 - back to 600cc and mostly track riding. Although this 600 is faster than the 900's of not too long ago. My only mistake was not taking MSF when I was 18. I never had a serious street crash though.  SignatureGreg Sumner Seattle WA '03 CBR 600RR > > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", > > "my buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > My only mistake was not taking MSF when I was 18. I never had a serious > street crash though. Age 17 - first motorcycle - '82 GS850L in '84. No MSF Average 15k miles per year. Never crashed. Dropped in the yard once while turning around in wet grass in order to avoid hitting grandmother who walked out in front of me. Hey, if your feet are on the ground while you are moving at walking speed, handlebars are at full lock, and your options are to grab front brake or hit grandma... SignatureTweak >> > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", >> > "my buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > speed, handlebars are at full lock, and your options are to grab front > brake or hit grandma... Actually, I was in the same situation and opted to kill grammaw in order to keep my record straight. You are obviously a snivelling coward,. > Actually, I was in the same situation and opted to kill grammaw in order to > keep my record straight. You are obviously a snivelling coward,. Indeed. I am worthless and weak. SignatureTweak I don't think that any of that training is going to save someone - it will help, but in the end, there are those who crash and those who don't. It is all about judgement and maturity, and these can't be taught. > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my > buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. > Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? > I don't think that any of that training is going to save someone - it will > help, but in the end, there are those who crash and those who don't. It is > all about judgement and maturity, and these can't be taught. And a good sense of balance & coordination. Some got it...some don't. -- Troy D. Hilton 2003 SV1000S > > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my > > buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. > > Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? > > I don't think that any of that training is going to save someone - it will > > help, but in the end, there are those who crash and those who don't. It is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Troy D. Hilton > 2003 SV1000S And a whole bunch of situational awareness!! I'm always amazed by the statement "they pulled right in front of me, I never had a chance" If you stop and think about it that's an indication of inattentiveness. I seem to always know what the drivers around me are going to do. The way their head moves or the cars shifts slightly in the lane or even their shoulders moving when they go to turn the steering wheel. The body will ALWAYS give away what a person is going to do. Every once in a great while I'm surprised by a cager. But VERY rarely. Of course I don't drive as fast as I used to, I follow farther behind than I used to and maintain greater cushions with the cars around me.... Damn... there might actually be something to this maturity thing. It's all opinion.... >> > I don't think that any of that training is going to save someone - it >will [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >And a whole bunch of situational awareness!! I'm always amazed by the >statement "they pulled right in front of me, I never had a chance" I fully agree there, if someone "pulls out right in front", chances are they were following the car too close and stayed in its blind spot. I mean I realize if you're in rush hour traffic, its virtually impossible to not be in a position where someone could pull right out in front of you, but then again, that still does not mean that you have to hang out in blind spots! >If you stop and think about it that's an indication of inattentiveness. I >seem to always know what the drivers around me are going to do. The way [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Damn... there might actually be something to this maturity thing. >It's all opinion.... Very well said, I fully agree with you there! Stephan 2001 Yamaha YZF-R6 >>> > I don't think that any of that training is going to save someone - it >>will [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Stephan > 2001 Yamaha YZF-R6 DITTO > I fully agree there, if someone "pulls out right in front", chances > are they were following the car too close and stayed in its blind > spot. Maybe, but there are also variations in how people perceive a situation in the first place? I've seen some of the things newer riders describe as near death experiences. More seasoned riders might regard the exact same circumstance as a nuisance at most. Let's say you're about to overtake a car in an adjacent lane with a 10 mph closing speed. The car is 100 feet ahead and suddenly changes into your lane without looking or signalling. A rider who still has to think about countersteering may see God. A roadracer might glance left, flick the bike into the next lane and pass the car while shaking his head. A flat-tracker might lay his bike down and then get up, dust himself off and spit on the road. ab >>I fully agree there, if someone "pulls out right in front", chances >>are they were following the car too close and stayed in its blind [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > might lay his bike down and then get up, dust himself off and spit on the > road. Flat trackers are some badass muthas. Thanks for the laugh. There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have no functional use on the street. Even the 600's are beginning to become absurd. All motorcycles have inherent risks on the streets that MSF's, track days, etc. can help, but not prevent accidents from happening. However, nobody can use the capability of these machines on the street, so how does one train to ride one if there is no intent to utilize it at it's potential? These things can do nearly 1/3 the speed of sound now. How can you license something to be used in a civilized fashion, if it's design is purely meant to break those laws, and the safety techniques that inherently limit their innate abilities? I myself, and I know I'm in the minority, would prefer the manufacturers to concentrate on smaller engined, lighter mounts, than stuffing the latest 167hp inline 4 into a 600cc frame. A nice, sporty bike with mild ergos, but with racer brakes and suspension, with a 660cc single cylinder engine, such as found in the Raptor ATV, or a smaller Vtwin of about 600 cc's is all we need now. Howabout a 300cc Speed Triple that weighs 320 pounds dry, and makes 50hp at the rear wheel, but has razor sharp handling..... I recently test rode a YZF450 behind my house, a 2004 model, that had been well setup for racing. I could not believe how much power that bike had. > We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my > buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. > Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? > There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have no > functional use on the street. I was waiting for this one.... I will agree, but they sure are FUN!!! > There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have > no functional use on the street. I disagree with this statement. I have ridden a Hayabusa now for nearly 2 years and have 14,000 miles on the bike. I think the bike is entirely functional. I haven't even had a ticket with it. Just because the bike is capable of doing 187 mph off the showroom floor doesn't mean that the rider will ever see that kind of speed. You don't need any special kind of training for a bike just because it can nearly do 1/3 the sound of speed, as you put it. Whether a bike can do 187 or 120 doesn't make a lot of difference in my mind. The maturity of the rider does make a huge difference. I can ride the Hayabusa around town all day long and stay under 50 mph. It is a pussycat until the rider turns it into a tiger. I wonder how much "extra" proper training it takes to drive a Corvette around town safely? They can nearly go as fast as the Hayabusa..... Dave Pedersen 03 Hayabusa http://mysite.verizon.net/resoajzb/ > > There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have > > no functional use on the street. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 03 Hayabusa > http://mysite.verizon.net/resoajzb/ The capability to run 186 translates into loafing at 80 with power to spare when Cletus in the construction truck decides he deserves your lane. That option to accelerate away from hazard at Interstate speed does not exist on my 450, and is not nearly as effective on the ST1100. Then you are left with the brakes, which is fairly alarming when another Cletus in a work van is 3 feet off your a.s. For commuting in Atlanta (at least when the traffic is moving), it is hard to beat. SignatureTweak > > There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > years and have 14,000 miles on the bike. I think the bike is entirely > functional. I bought a CBR 600 because I am the kind of person that if I bought a bike that claimed it could go 185 mph off the showroom floor, I'd want to make sure it really could. I figured the easiest way to avoid the temptation was to not have the temptation. I have a Metric touring bike that I ride for my work commute, those longer jaunts, and when I have cargo to carry. It's a 800cc v-twin and it lumbers along just dandy. When I switch between the cruiser and the CBR 600 it is like night and day. My CBR probably has twice the horsepower and weighs half as much. Now here's the thing: my CBR 600 goes really quick really fast, and you're hitting triple digits on the speedometer before you know it; sometimes I feel that I'm literally flying over the road. I can only imagine that a liter sportbike would only amplify that effect even further. Fun? Sure. Functional? Maybe. A good choice for daily street riding? Jury's out on that one, but I've always considered the current crop of liter bikes more of a novelty than anything else. > I bought a CBR 600 because I am the kind of person that if I bought a > bike that claimed it could go 185 mph off the showroom floor, I'd want > to make sure it really could. I figured the easiest way to avoid the > temptation was to not have the temptation. So, can your 600 really go 161? High powered bikes certainly have more capability than anyone *needs* for the street, but sportbikes aren't generally about need anyway. Riders in, say, Brazil aguably need their bikes. They buy these small- displacement pea-shooters with a top case like an ice chest and use them for basic transportation. They seem to be able to cope reasonably well with traffic that is is orders of magnitude worse on the insane-o-meter than anything we talk about in the US. The sportbikes we get here cater to what someone has decided we want: Powerful motorcycles. The market seems to bear it out. The Honda Hawk (NT-650) sucked eggs sales-wise when it was a current bike, then magically became a "cult bike" the instant Honda stopped selling it here. The Yamaha SRX-6 never did too well either. Both were fun bikes, but they didn't seem to be what the majority of us want. We like fast bikes, then. I do; they're a hoot. They do require restraint and experience counts for something too. The higher-powered bikes can make things happen in a big hurry, so if your experience level means you require more time to make your bike turn, or remember where the front brake is, you might get into more trouble on something that accelerates hard than on something that doesn't compress time quite so much. Still, the reality is that most of the things we call sportbikes are damn fast and a certain level of skill is necessary to even have a chance at being safe on the street. Skill != safety, however. An individual's judgement and motives matter too. I think of judgement as being different from skill, but even if you don't, there's the question of your motives. What are you looking for in riding? Some people enjoy the sensations of motion, the satisfaction of controlling something a little more involved than a car, but also desire a certain level of safety. Others are looking for a rush. Someone who wants a rush will only find it if he's afraid. He becomes afraid when he pushes against the limits of his skill level. If you increase this rider's skill, have you made him safer? I'd say not. He's still looking for a rush, only now he's more skilled. Unless he has changed his viewpoint, his only option is to go faster. So, maybe "proper training" needs context. Proper to achieve what outcome? Simply greater bike control, or a larger safety margin? ab > There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have > no functional use on the street. Even the 600's are beginning to become [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > pounds dry, and makes 50hp at the rear wheel, but has razor sharp > handling..... You are right. In France, that is why we have a 106bhp limit, which is less at rear wheel. Any 1000 super bike is 106bhp in this country. Heaps of studies here have borne out what you said. Motorcycles for street use have long exceeded any practical reality. Actually, practice on smaller engines make riders better. > I recently test rode a YZF450 behind my house, a 2004 model, that had been > well setup for racing. I could not believe how much power that bike had. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> ANY 1988-1994 World Superbike without breaking a sweat. >> Is it possible or am I just seeing a pipe dream? > You are right. In France, that is why we have a 106bhp limit, which is less > at rear wheel. Any 1000 super bike is 106bhp in this country. Heaps of > studies here have borne out what you said. Motorcycles for street use have > long exceeded any practical reality. Of course here in the US we'd build a Bastille JUST so we could guillotine the sorry bastards that passed that lame a.s law... ;) There is no proper training for bikes of this caliber, because they have no functional use on the street. Even the 600's are beginning to become absurd. I'll agree they're useless, but "absurd," I'm not sure. This argument assumes an objective standard for "dangerous" levels of power. Remember when Germany instituted the "100 horsepower limit" on motorcycles, c. 1992? I do, because Kawasaki throttled the then red-hot ZX-7R with lower-compression pistons, lame valves, and mellow cams to "limit horsepower." That was the most f.cked-up thing to come out of Europe since Jacques Chirac, but hey: such were the times. Perhaps you'll retort, "no one can handle 155rwhp on a 460lb wet, state-of-the-art chassis!" Well, if so I'd say few, if any, street situations "require" such performance, many experienced riders can in fact handle it just fine. As for the 600s, I believe Mr. Sumner will concur: they ain't all that. Yes, they get up and scoot, with 100 or more rwhp, 415lbs or so wet. Are they "dangerous," "uncontrollable," or "Too powerful?" IMHO, not really: thus it is, thus it shall always be the loose nut behind the bars remains the prime variable. However, nobody can use the capability of these machines on the street, so how does one train to ride one if there is no intent to utilize it at it's potential? These things can do nearly 1/3 the speed of sound now. How can you license something to be used in a civilized fashion, if it's design is purely meant to break those laws, and the safety techniques that inherently limit their innate abilities? Nope: that removes "personal responsibility" from the equation. In the end, that's always what it comes down to. A nice, sporty bike with mild ergos, but with racer brakes and suspension, with a 660cc single cylinder engine, such as found in the Raptor ATV, or a smaller Vtwin of about 600 cc's is all we need now. Howabout a 300cc Speed Triple that weighs 320 pounds dry, and makes 50hp at the rear wheel, but has razor sharp handling..... You're aware there have been many such bikes over the years more-or-less meeting your criteria, including but not limited to: 1. Honda Hawk, various iterations 2. Honda CB-1, c. 1989 3. Yamaha TDM850, c. 1992; 4. Yamaha SRX600, c. 1986. 5. Suzuki SV650 6. Kawi EX500 7. Tons of interesting JPN market mini-screamers. I recently test rode a YZF450 behind my house, a 2004 model, that had been well setup for racing. I could not believe how much power that bike had. All that and a bag of chips: SuperMotard, mon. It's making an ever-larger splash in this country: may the trend continue. '----------------------------------------------------- ' Daniel Bannon ' NW WA State, U.S.A. ' 2003 ZX636B Hercusaki, 1999 CBR1100XX '----------------------------------------------------- >We all sit and watch the posts about "my friend crashed last night", "my >buddy died yesterday", "got some bad news" and then we sit a talk about >proper training... The question's rhetorical, but topic interesting. Thank you for starting it. You may be insinuating there is no "training" for such mad machines. In a sense, I'd agree. Some can handle the authority, others not. I was reminded of this on the 'Bird the other day: hit the gas on a beast bike, even eight year old technology, and it'll fly. That hasn't changed so much across the decades. These days they simply fly harder, faster. Perhaps you're suggesting you somehow survived iterative steps en route to bigger bikes. Or maybe you're referring to your son, loved one, friend, whatever. I too could provide a step-by-step "I did this and lived" process, starting at age 15 and ending at 37, today. What's the point? What worked for me might or might not work for others: we're all different, with varied dispositions, physical abilities, mental acumen, social background, etc. I submit all play a role in how we've suvived motorcycles thus far, though somehow quanfiying the ingredients for survival always proves elusive. If I'd had access to resources at 18 sufficient to buy a CBR1000RR, you can bet your a.s I'd have owned one. At 19 I bought the latest, greated, rootin' tootin' stonking middleweight of the day: GPz550 (OK, it was a couple years off the cutting edge, at the time, but still). Socio-economic status therefore provided crude tiered-licensing in my case: moped, scooter, 550, 750, 1100, etc. (back in the day when I was dumb enough to believe displacement increase automateically = "upgrade"). I survived, through some mysterious combo of luck, skill, and God knows what else. Scratch education: I never sought any out. Very bad idea, but it is what it is. Hell, I could be killed on my motorcycle tomorrow. There are no free passes: every day must be approached with fresh eyes. Become blasé, you'll crash. Unlucky, ditto. That's life. Really, this is a massively nebulous question: why do some survive and others not? Is it the bike's "fault," a cager's "fault," youth and exuberance (inherent "fault"), Leprechauns, drugs, alcohol, Republicans, what? Geez, someone must be at "fault" for the poor bastards wrecking and dying (injured, maimed, paralyzed, etc.) Figure that out, you'll sleep better at night. Let us know when you do: we'll petition to legislate that evil elusive thing right out of society. '----------------------------------------------------- ' Daniel Bannon ' NW WA State, U.S.A. ' 2003 ZX636B Hercusaki, 1999 CBR1100XX '----------------------------------------------------- |
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