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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / October 2005Diesel
http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php 100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. Bryan > http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > > 100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. > > Bryan This is funny, I often think about (and dismiss it with a laugh) this and that some day I'd like to see a diesel bike, seeing that I am a huge fan of the fuel. But of course who'd ever imagine bike that could run on a seemingly irresponsive fuel. But hey, leave it to the Germans to come up with a solution, after all they're kings of developing the best small size diesel engines. If only they'd put that engine on a bike I could ride... >> http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and that some day I'd like to see a diesel bike, seeing that I am a huge >fan of the fuel. But of course who'd ever imagine bike that could run on ^^^^^^^^^^ ??? >a seemingly irresponsive fuel. But hey, leave it to the Germans to come ----------------^^^^^^^^ Unresponsive? not the proper term! What does this mean? Did you know they make bombs from Diesel fuel & ammonium nitrate not Gasoline which incidently "burns slower" and has less power per gallon. [...] Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures > >> http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles > http://bigrex.net/pictures Thanks for the correction, unresponsive is the word I was looking for. What I mean is, a diesel vehicle isn't as responsive as a gas one. Take for instance Robin Gordon's run at the Dakar this year, when he piloted the new VW Touareg, a bad a.s diesel. He could not steer the car with the gas pedal (as in, when he punched it, it would take a bit of time for the engine to kick in strong) and that was a major disadvantage to him. Since bikes are usually piloted by people that expect very quick responses, I never thought a diesel bike could fly. Perhaps not on a race bike but a chopper is the ideal candidate for it. As someone mentioned, diesel is so appropriate from a sound stand point alone (although that statement doesn't fly anymore, given the new advances in diesel engines - look at the smart, for instance - very quiet) >> >> http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php >> >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >(although that statement doesn't fly anymore, given the new advances in >diesel engines - look at the smart, for instance - very quiet) Sounds more like you're talking about Turbo-lag, Joey. That doesn't have to be an issue with today's ceramic wheels and variable geometry turbo vanes (pulsed turbos). Drive a 90HP VW 1.9 liter TDI sometime. You'll swear it's a V6 at up to 60MPH. Peak torque is at 1900 RPM. The Diesel engine actually has a faster initial combustion than a comparable gas engine but the TOTAL injection/ combustion cycle is longer, due to continued injection after the initial combustion begins. Rudolf Diesel's dream of a constantly expanding volume engine has nearly been realized. The bottom line is that while the initial combustion phase of a Diesel engine is quicker than a gas engine, the total combustion cycle is longer due to continuous injection through more degrees of the power stroke. In gasoline engines, the combustion cycle is a one shot affair but the fuel actually burns slower and the total volume of the fuel air mixture is consumed in the process. Conversely, in a Diesel engine there's an injector that is akin to a small torch burning as long as the injection cycle continues. It may sound counter intuitive (due to the soot in the exhaust stream) but Diesel engines run leaner than gas engines, which have more or less a constant air to fuel ratio of 12 to 14:1. A Diesel's air to fuel ratio may range from a lean 150:1 at idle (no throttle plate) to around 20:1 at WOT. The soot is a byproduct of incomplete combustion (mostly older injector designs) of the less volatile fuel, which also has a more complex molecular structure with a high carbon to hydrogen ratio than gasoline. IOW, like acetylene vs. propane, diesel fuel has higher carbon content. Hint: ever light an acetylene (C2H2) torch with a low volume and no oxygen then watch the solid soot rise in the air? Propane is more like gasoline in this respect (C4H12) and produces a yellow flame but no visible soot. Acetylene also burns faster and pops when lit or shut down improperly. The reason I brought this parallel to the table is for you to see the difference between gasoline and Diesel fuel using acetylene vs. propane combustion as the teacher. Also if you're interested, read up on the differences between Octane and Cetane. They produce nearly opposite combustion characteristics. OBTW, let us not forget the differences between Compression ignition (Diesels) and Spark ignition (petrol or gasoline engines). This also follows the Acetylene vs. propane model as acetylene lights off spontaneously (dull red hot surface) much easier than propane which usually requires a spark or hotter surface. Also, Diesel knock is due to the delay of spontaneous ignition whereas gas engine knock or detonation is an aberration (unwanted) condition due to a hot spot or over compression for the octane rating of the fuel. Diesel knock & smoke is also becoming a thing of the past due to modern technology or a more highly controlled injection (up to 7 injections of varying volume per cycle) cycle. PS. The Dodge Diesel truck (Cummins/Case tractor inline 6) engine is a poor example of a low noise modern Diesel fuel injection. Look more at the new GM Duramax or later Fords for more sophisticated high pressure, common rail injection. Also, in Europe the newer Diesel cars have relatively quiet idle and no exhaust soot. They also produce as much or even higher HP/liter as comparably sized petrol engines but get up to 50% better fuel economy. Diesel's are the future of IC engines and our old prejudices are leaving us far behind the curve in the USA. Diesel is also easier and cheaper to refine. The reason it costs more in the USA is due to lower volume usage around cities (truck stops get it cheaper) and those old school anti-Diesel prejudices. Also Jet Fuel (Kerosene with additives) is molecularly very close to Diesel #2 fuel and is used in high quantities by the airlines. Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures > >diesel engines - look at the smart, for instance - very quiet) > > Sounds more like you're talking about Turbo-lag, Joey. That doesn't > have to be an issue with today's ceramic wheels and variable geometry > turbo vanes (pulsed turbos). Drive a 90HP VW 1.9 liter TDI sometime. > You'll swear it's a V6 at up to 60MPH. Peak torque is at 1900 RPM. You're not talking about *this* VW, are ya: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=10108  Signatureremove MYSHOES to email >> >diesel engines - look at the smart, for instance - very quiet) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >You're not talking about *this* VW, are ya: >http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=10108 Yeah right...a $1.25 million Buggatti Veyron has about as much in common with a VW TDI as a Whale with a Minnow. And you know the Bugatti is still slower than a $10,000 GSXR1K, R1 ZX10R or CBR1000RR in many respects. Like 0-30, 0-60, 0-100, 0-150MPH, fuel economy bigtime (50mpg vs 7) and 1/4 mile time and speed. Just a 4 wheeled f*cking worthless richman's toy! Where in the world are you going to be able to go 253MPH besides a very few race tracks anyway? Also that engine would be ruined on pump gas without some sort of octane booster with 15.8psi on top of 9.3 CR with no boost. They didn't memtion that, now did they? Think about it. with pistons of 500ccs per cylinder those bores are too big to support anything under 106 octane with massive intercooling & -0- carbon buildup. The whole concept doesn't wash in the real world. BUGATTI VEYRON 16.4 Vehicle type: mid-engine, 4-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door coupe Base price: $1,250,000 Engine type: quad-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 64-valve W-16, aluminum block and heads, direct fuel injection Displacement: 488 cu in, 7998cc Power (SAE net): 1001 bhp @ 6000 rpm Torque (SAE net): 922 lb-ft @ 2200 rpm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Transmission: 7-speed manual with automated shifting and clutch Wheelbase: 106.3 in Length/width/height: 175.8/78.7/47.5 in Curb weight: 4300 lb Performance ratings (C/D est): Zero to 60 mph: 2.9 sec Zero to 100 mph: 6.0 sec Zero to 150 mph: 11.0 sec Zero to 200 mph: 22.0 sec Standing 1/4-mile: 10.8 sec @ 140 mph Top speed (observed at governor): 253 mph Projected fuel economy (C/D est): EPA city driving: 7 mpg EPA highway driving: 10 mpg Steady 253 mph: 3 mpg Finally, don't get so impressed over these 4 wheel POS concept cars. Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures > Finally, don't get so impressed over these 4 wheel POS concept cars. It's a Production Car. Signatureremove MYSHOES to email >> Finally, don't get so impressed over these 4 wheel POS concept cars. > >It's a Production Car. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ How many have been sold, then??? Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures >>> Finally, don't get so impressed over these 4 wheel POS concept cars. >> >>It's a Production Car. >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >How many have been sold, then??? At 50 a year, probably every one they've made along with a waiting list. George CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 Hayabusa > > >diesel engines - look at the smart, for instance - very quiet) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You're not talking about *this* VW, are ya: > http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=10108 Yeah, big deal - my VW does this too: (quote from page 2) "At the same time a small spoiler deploys from the rear bodywork and a wing extends about a foot, perched at a six-degree angle." > Diesel's are the future of IC engines and our old prejudices are > leaving us far behind the curve in the USA. Diesel is also easier and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is molecularly very close to Diesel #2 fuel and is used in high > quantities by the airlines. That is no longer the case. Although I can't speak for the USians, I believe that much like here diesel currently costs MORE than gasoline (or in your language, petrol). This is incredible but true, not sure but I'd bet this is the first time in history this has ever happened. Just last week diesel was a buck a litre, this while gas has been creeping down. Today I filled up the gsx at 80 cents/l. Gf tells me (who drives a diesel) that it is now costing over a buck a litre. I wouldn't be quick to blame it on low consumption - there likely are more transport trucks on the roads and more heavy equipment in NA than there is in Europe - not to mention American built diesel engines are highly inefficient compared to the German built ones. It wouldn't surprise me if more diesel is consumed in NA than anywhere else. I can't see small vehicles making up the difference as you propose. But yeah, USians are very reluctant to drive diesels. Isn't this some sort of defense mechanism? Where their attitude is, the bigger the better. Why would an USian drive a diesel Golf when he naturally needs to make up for whatever deficiencies he has by sporting a gigantic SUV instead? >> >> http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php >> >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > (although that statement doesn't fly anymore, given the new advances in > diesel engines - look at the smart, for instance - very quiet) the problem is probably more to do with VW's laggy electronic accellerator control. On my VW, if I am clumsy and miss a gearchange (20k miles around pothole-ridden London a year = a LOT of gearchanges) the revs fly off the tacho, even though I'm quick to release the pedal. Never happened on my older cable-operated van I'd feel the gearstick jump out of the half-engaged gear and catch it before the revs climed . There is quite a noticeable delay between the throttle and the engine on the newer T5 diesel vans. >http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > >100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. Nice concept design but how much will it cost? BTW, that dual counter rotation crankshaft thingy sure looks cool. They claim it cancels out the vibes normally found in parallel twins. It looks to be a 360 degree four stroke (4 valve) twin with one cylinder firing and the other on the exhaust stroke but both pistons move up and down together. Also a few interesting things are particulate traps to prevent soot in the exhaust and modern high pressure (multi injection) common rail fuel injection optimizing efficiency, low noise & low particulates. Also it's not a revver with 1.4 liters and 100HP @ 144 lbs of torque. IMO, a perfect engine for a street bike and Diesels naturally run cooler than petrol engines. Yes even turbo-diesels have low EGT's. Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures >>http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles > http://bigrex.net/pictures I think they said NOT CHEAP. Aren't all diesels really 2 strokes? I think I read that on howthingswork.com. What does Harley give us? The Buell? Or Victory? Sheeesh. But the real question is: how does it sound? Is it LOUD? And they call it a "chopper" I thought that was funny. OCC, et. al., eat your hearts out. Me? I love my screaming 600cc I4. But I am open to new ideas. Bryan >>>http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> IMO, a perfect engine for a street bike and Diesels naturally run >> cooler than petrol engines. Yes even turbo-diesels have low EGT's. [...] >I think they said NOT CHEAP. Aren't all diesels really 2 strokes? I think >I read that on howthingswork.com. No! Most small Diesels (up to 20 liters) are 4 strokes. Only the big ones these days (trains, ships & power plants) are two strokes. >What does Harley give us? The Buell? Or Victory? Sheeesh. Exactly! >But the real question is: how does it sound? Is it LOUD? Probably no louder than most cruisers with stock pipes. Diesel knock is a thing of the past, BTW. Witness a VW TDI or MB 300TD. >And they call it a >"chopper" I thought that was funny. OCC, et. al., eat your hearts out. > >Me? I love my screaming 600cc I4. But I am open to new ideas. You don't have to buy one. But any competition to HD I love. Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 50K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures > http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > > 100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. > > Bryan For the off-road riders out there. http://www.f1engineering.com/diesel%20bike%20specs.html SignaturePoorUB '05 Ultra Classic > > http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.f1engineering.com/diesel%20bike%20specs.html Nice, thanks for the link. I wonder how much that engine weighs over the stock KLR motor? Sometimes I want to go all diesel ('cept my sportbike) and make my own biodiesel for less than a buck a gallon using used vegetable oil. How nice it would be to smell french fries while mowing the yard! I just think once I found a source for the UVO, others would catch on and folks would want to start charging for it. Seems to me a dual-sport is a great application for a diesel, especially a KLR with it's street bias over, say, a DR. G > http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > > 100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. A locomotive V16 two stroke diesel produces 300 times as much hp and torque. Of course its a little heavy. > Bryan "Phil Scott" <philscott@philscott.net> wrote in news:djvbcd$jpv$1 @news.tdl.com: >> http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php >> >> 100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. > > A locomotive V16 two stroke diesel produces 300 times as much > hp and torque. Of course its a little heavy. Used to build the Electromotive version some years ago. The worst one to work on was the yard switcher. You had to be a contortionist to build them let alone repair them. Miserable. Amtrack was the worst of the big locomotives. All of those safety extras required by the USG was a real pain. Freight locomotives were much easier to work on. We had a large heat treating oven explode one night. When I say explode I mean that there was a gas valve failure which caused a build up of natural gas inside the oven. The oven was a little smaller than a one car garage. When the fellow opened the door to push in more parts, the superheated gas now had oxygen and ignited. The oven was fine but the resultant explosion and fireball instantly burnt and blew his clothes off. The worst part of it was that the poor bastard who was standing at the entrace when it blew up, lived. When I saw him which was a few seconds after the explosion, I thought he was a negro and just had his clothes blown off. I found out later that he was a white guy. I was amazed at how quick people responded to help him. In less than 30 seconds he was on his way to the ambulance. Less than 2 miuntes after that he was in the ambulance on his way to the hospital. The McCook fire department station was right across the street. We were all grateful for those guys that night. pierce > http://www.neander-motors.com/motorbike/en/index.php > > 100hp, 144 ft lbs torque, need I say more. In a chopper? Why? |
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