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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / November 2006Engine ice on the track
Is Engine Ice acceptable at the track? does anybody know? Doing my fourth track day next month and the forecast for the night before may at or below freezing, w/ Red Line watter wetter in the bike as of now I don't want it to freeze. TIA  SignaturePhil >Is Engine Ice acceptable at the track? > >does anybody know? Yup, use "engine ice", brand name, it's purple" or "Propylene Glycol" Unpressurized in turns to ice at -74deg f and boils at 370Deg f thus far outstretching other antifreeze substitutes like water wetter or Ethylene Glycol="normal car/bike antifreeze". It's also not slippery >Doing my fourth track day next month and the forecast for the night >before may at or below freezing, w/ Red Line watter wetter in the bike >as of now I don't want it to freeze. > >TIA Short answer is NO! Read further below. FREEZING POINT DEPRESSION Red Line Water Wetter does not significantly reduce the freezing point of water. If the vehicle will see freezing temperatures, antifreeze must be used. Water expands approximately 9% upon freezing which can cause severe engine damage. Even in summertime, the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used. PS. your tires will never get warm enoungh to give you the adequit traction you will NEED below -32F. You're just asking for a fall. Track days and racing are for warm >60F weather. Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 55K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures > PS. your tires will never get warm enoungh to give you the adequit > traction you will NEED below -32F. At below -32F you might well be right, but water freezes at +32F, not -32. > You're just asking for a fall. > Track days and racing are for warm >60F weather. I've run at Willow Springs with temps in the high 20s, and while it took noticeably longer for the tires to warm up, nobody was falling over for lack of traction. (Note: My bike rode to the track in the heated "garage" of my motorhome, so the rubber wasn't at ambient air temperature when I first hit the track, but the bike was left outside in the wind and cold between track sessions. I *did* have to run a few laps slowly at the beginning of each session to warm the rubber back up. Just for the original poster: I wore my knitted thermal Nomex Long-Johns, a *heavy* seat of sweats over them, my leathers on top, stuffed a bandana down around my neck to keep the slipstream from blowing down my collar, and wore silk liners under my racing gloves. I was reasonably comfortable, but was glad the track sessions were only twenty minutes long. Much longer than that and I would have needed electric gloves. Pete >> PS. your tires will never get warm enoungh to give you the adequit >> traction you will NEED below -32F. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >sessions. I *did* have to run a few laps slowly at the beginning of each >session to warm the rubber back up. [...] Pete, not to beat this thread to death but it's slow here this weekend, so I though I'd bring up several points: 1) Willow Sprigs is a very fast track (150+MPH sweepers) while your VFR will only do maybe 145 MPH top speed on a radar gun & maybe low 150's if it's "hopped up" some. Also, think HP loss at high desert altitudes or at least several and lower wind resistance doesn't always make up for the loss in HP. To support this, GSXR 750's and 1000's & R1's & CBR1000RR are up over 175 TS. Hell even a well setup track R6, ZX6R, GSXR600, F4 (CBR600RRR) or 675 will do >160 MPH. 2) Even if you were talking the smaller, tighter "streets of Willow" track, I believe that optimal lap times in the winter @25 deg F would be down at least 10 seconds off summer times. Otherwise there would be lots more crashes during winter months. And there plolly is more low sides anyway when it's cold outside. 3) VFR's rarely run DOT race tires and even if they did the heat you would be able to get into them ("optimally" all balled up out to the edges 180 degF +) would be no greater than a street tire in the winter (something on yours or my bike) like an 014F/020R combination. IOW, It's my believe that especially during cold weather, traction may actually be a bit better with a street tire that a dot race tire like a Michelin race medium compound. IOW, some of that heat has got to come from the road not just the tire. Think at the laws of physics. 4) Willow Springs is rural high desert and you live over closer to LA or quite a drive in the morning. While Willow temps may well drop to 25 degrees during winter mornings, by the time you ride or trailer over there & get out on the track, it's warmed to above 40 degrees. Welcoming yours or other's counter points. Bob Nixon, Chandler AZ 01 Sprint ST "RED" 55K miles http://bigrex.net/pictures >>I've run at Willow Springs with temps in the high 20s, and while it took >>noticeably longer for the tires to warm up, nobody was falling over for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > 1) Willow Springs is a very fast track (150+MPH sweepers) Bob, you're trying to tell me about a track where I first raced in 1966 and where to the best of my knowledge you've never been... In fact, Willow has exactly two (2) 150+MPH sweepers; turns 7 and 8, and turn 7 isn't really a corner: it's just a very gentle bend in the back straight. (See http://willowspringsraceway.com/trackinformation/maps.asp for an ariel photo.) Now; the western half of the track is still quick, mind you, but turns 1 to turn 5 are all pretty much done in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gears, depending on your gearing. Turn 6 is somewhat faster, but it exits onto the back straight and you go through there at full acceleration on most bikes. > while your > VFR will only do maybe 145 MPH top speed on a radar gun & maybe low > 150's if it's "hopped up" some. Mine's been clocked at a bit over 150 on radar, dead stock, at El Mirage dry lake, but so what? > Also, think HP loss at high desert > altitudes or at least several and lower wind resistance doesn't always > make up for the loss in HP. El Mirage is essentially at the same altitude as Willow Springs, is part of the same desert, and the dry lake is only about 40 miles east of the track. > To support this, GSXR 750's and 1000's & > R1's & CBR1000RR are up over 175 TS. Hell even a well setup track R6, > ZX6R, GSXR600, F4 (CBR600RRR) or 675 will do >160 MPH. So? Even topping out at 145 I could only go through 2 of Willow Springs' 9 turns flat out anyway. (And "Turn 7" doesn't really count: see picture above.) All of the other corners require backing off the throttle, downshifting, braking, or some combination of those. So in reality, Willow is just a normal everyday racetrack: not something that you can ride around with your throttle wide open; not even on a 250. > 2) Even if you were talking the smaller, tighter "streets of Willow" > track, I believe that optimal lap times in the winter @25 deg F would > be down at least 10 seconds off summer times. Otherwise there would be > lots more crashes during winter months. I'm sure that lap times are probably somewhat slower when the weather's cold, but it isn't a big noticable difference when you're in the saddle. We aren't talking about GP levels of skill or GP bikes here anyway: these guys were probably 99% street riders out having a good time at the track just like you or me. > And there plolly is more low sides anyway when it's cold outside. The one day I ran there in the cold, there were 2 crashes, and they were both in the afternoon when the air temps were probably up in the high 40s or low 50s. Track surface temps? Who knows? > 3) VFR's rarely run DOT race tires and even if they did the heat you > would be able to get into them ("optimally" all balled up out to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a Michelin race medium compound. IOW, some of that heat has got to > come from the road not just the tire. Think at the laws of physics. Unlike street tires, race tires are available to suit different temperature ranges. So presumably a racing tire that was designed for low track temperatures would still have considerably more traction than a street tire, no matter *what* the ambient temperatures. Personally, I was using a reasonably new set of Bridgestone BT012s, and they seemed just fine once they had three or four laps on them. > 4) Willow Springs is rural high desert and you live over closer to LA > or quite a drive in the morning. Just less than 95 miles. > While Willow temps may well drop to > 25 degrees during winter mornings, by the time you ride or trailer > over there & get out on the track, it's warmed to above 40 degrees. Where did you get the idea that I must be speaking of the temperature at my home when I left for the track? The thermometer on the sign in Rosamond read 18 degrees F as I passed it that morning, just past sunrise and about 5 miles east of the track. (Quoth I: "sh.t!") And, as it happens, the newer VFRs come stock with both engine and ambient air temperature sensors. Out of morbid curiosity, I had my ambient air temp gauge switched on as I rode out for my first lap, an hour or so later, and it was flashing back and forth between 28 and 29 degrees. > Welcoming yours or other's counter points. Thanks for your polite reply, Bob. Pete > The thermometer on the sign in Rosamond read 18 degrees F as I passed it > that morning, just past sunrise and about 5 miles east of the track. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hour or so later, and it was flashing back and forth between 28 and 29 > degrees. Oh well just SCREW that. I always figured I'd sneak a Willow trackday in sometime during the winter because it was warm enough to ride, are these kinds of temps NORMAL for winter there? I thought that high desert was warmer during the winter. >> The thermometer on the sign in Rosamond read 18 degrees F as I passed >> it that morning, just past sunrise and about 5 miles east of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > NORMAL for winter there? I thought that high desert was warmer during > the winter. That's pretty funny. Here in the "frozen tundra" we've been having mid 50s for highs. I love this global warming thing! :) It's nice being able to take a "spirited" through kettle moraine area this late. The eerie thing was seeing all the bright orange coats... It's deer hunting season. It was a little distracting. >> The thermometer on the sign in Rosamond read 18 degrees F as I passed it >> that morning, just past sunrise and about 5 miles east of the track. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Oh well just SCREW that. Well, as I stated earlier in the thread, it wasn't all that bad given twenty minute track sessions and several layers of insulation. It was also a perfectly clear day, and the direct sunlight helped a lot. But it was still uncomfortably cold up until about 11:00 am, and they weren't giving any refunds on the track day entry fees...so I rode anyway. (Am I a cheap SOB? Yes.) > I always figured I'd sneak a Willow trackday in sometime during the winter > because it was warm enough to ride, are these kinds of temps NORMAL for > winter there? No. The track day in question was during the third (?) week of November several years ago, and it was during an unusual cold snap. Daytime highs during the winter probably average somewhere in the 50s or 60s. > I thought that high desert was warmer during the winter. Nope again. The California high desert is dry alright, hense "desert", but it's not a whole bunch warmer than the rest of non-coastal Southern California during the summers, and is frequently colder than the rest of SC during the winters. Weather at Willow Springs usually follows this pattern: Summers are windy and hot, winters are windy and cold, and spring and fall are just plain windy. Pete > Unlike street tires, race tires are available to suit different temperature > ranges. So presumably a racing tire that was designed for low track > temperatures would still have considerably more traction than a street tire, > no matter *what* the ambient temperatures. > Personally, I was using a reasonably new set of Bridgestone BT012s, and they > seemed just fine once they had three or four laps on them. One morning at this years GNF it was ~35 degrees. My laptimes were 8 or 9 seconds off, but it wasn't due to traction, it was due to the inside of my faceshield frosting. A "No fog" shield will still freeze up I discovered (to my dismay, as it was a sudden event). I recall no traction issues using DOT tires that had been on warmers. SignatureTweak > Pete, not to beat this thread to death but it's slow here this > weekend, so I though I'd bring up several points: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > altitudes or at least several and lower wind resistance doesn't always > make up for the loss in HP. Conversely colder temps= denser air=higher hp and greater air resistance= maybe a wash? >To support this, GSXR 750's and 1000's & > R1's & CBR1000RR are up over 175 TS. Hell even a well setup track R6, > ZX6R, GSXR600, F4 (CBR600RRR) or 675 will do >160 MPH. ?? > 2) Even if you were talking the smaller, tighter "streets of Willow" > track, I believe that optimal lap times in the winter @25 deg F would > be down at least 10 seconds off summer times. Otherwise there would be > lots more crashes during winter months. And there plolly is more low > sides anyway when it's cold outside. Bob a few points to consider: A dry 25 degee temp track will still have greater traction then a wet track. I've never been or even seen Willow but light rain over here at PIR usually only cuts lap times 2-3 seconds, of course more time lost if there's heaver rain--(rub that gloating smile off your face :) The other issue is how much influence the surface temps have on tire heat. This is an issue that I don't (or can't remember) have any data on...but most of the tire heat is generated by the tire flexing. This is why you reduce the tire pressure at the track or during the winter --to increase the heat in the tires. > 3) VFR's rarely run DOT race tires and even if they did the heat you > would be able to get into them ("optimally" all balled up out to the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Welcoming yours or other's counter points. Bob, I hope you had a mega Thanksgiving Day....you have plenty to be thankful for, as all of us "old dudes" around here and still riding do.... >> PS. your tires will never get warm enoungh to give you the adequit >> traction you will NEED below -32F. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Pete Can't be reading this!!!:) If you are riding in the 20s, IMO, the tires will never get warm. The ground will not get warm, and neither will the tires.. Lean angles will be just asking for a crash. Signatureceh 2001 GSX R1000 2006 CBR 600rr (full race) 2006 XLT F150 SC 5.4 (black Mamba) CCS/WERA #630 65 & Over Racing Team(65 old,dirty,fast) My Race Bike http://mysite.verizon.net/cehowardrc51/tony67.jpg My Truck & Trailer http://mysite.verizon.net/cehowardrc51/trail105.jpg >> I've run at Willow Springs with temps in the high 20s, and while it took >> noticeably longer for the tires to warm up, nobody was falling over for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> between track sessions. I *did* have to run a few laps slowly at the >> beginning of each session to warm the rubber back up. > Can't be reading this!!!:) If you are riding in the 20s, IMO, the tires > will never get warm. The tires *did* get warm. I pulled off my gloves to check them after the first session -just out of curiosity- and they were quite warm. > The ground will not get warm, and neither will the tires.. Lean angles > will be just asking for a crash. Shrug. To the best of my recollection only about two people went down all day long, and they both did so in the afternoon when the temps had climbed into the high 40s or low 50s. The guys running the track day told everybody to spend several laps warming up their tires before they started to lean on 'em, and that's all there was to it. No big deal. Pete > >Is Engine Ice acceptable at the track? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > far outstretching other antifreeze substitutes like water wetter or > Ethylene Glycol="normal car/bike antifreeze". It's also not slippery The OP needs to ask the organization that is putting on the event that he intends to run at. The only additive allowed at our races is water wetter. No substitutes or other brands. Some track days may allow other stuff, but none of the racing organizations do. > >Doing my fourth track day next month and the forecast for the night > >before may at or below freezing, w/ Red Line watter wetter in the bike [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > traction you will NEED below -32F. You're just asking for a fall. > Track days and racing are for warm >60F weather. I assume you are talking about +32F and we sometimes race at that temperture at the beginning and end of our racing season. We have also raced in snow, sleet and hail to say nothing about rain. Thanks for all the replies! I checked their website and it's rule #1, the do allow Engine Ice. #1 We and the track recommend replacing the Anti-freeze with Water / Water Wetter / or Engine Ice! But this is no longer mandatory! This is @ Buttonwillow, btw. Temps during the day should be in the 60's. I would highly recommend trackdays to anyone! What a blast!!! SignaturePhil >>> Is Engine Ice acceptable at the track? >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > temperture at the beginning and end of our racing season. We have also > raced in snow, sleet and hail to say nothing about rain. > Is Engine Ice acceptable at the track? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > TIA In my area most the trackday orgs accept Engine Ice. In fact, I am taking water wetter out, and replacing it with Engine Ice. Come March I will switch back to water wetter. If you bike is out in the open, and the temps get real low, that might be a problem. A couple times my bike was out in the 20s, but it was in the trailer. Signatureceh 2001 GSX R1000 2006 CBR 600rr (full race) 2006 XLT F150 SC 5.4 (black Mamba) CCS/WERA #630 65 & Over Racing Team(65 old,dirty,fast) My Race Bike http://mysite.verizon.net/cehowardrc51/tony67.jpg My Truck & Trailer http://mysite.verizon.net/cehowardrc51/trail105.jpg |
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