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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / November 2006



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Stephan Rose - 28 Nov 2006 03:00 GMT
...bites the dust...

Friend's ex g/f off mine...

Little experience + ZX-6R + corner + exessive speed + sand + tree =
bad.

She's alive but...from what I know so far..

Lacerated Kidney and spleen, broken shoulder, some kinda back injury,
punctured lung and two broken libs...

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
BryanUT - 28 Nov 2006 03:07 GMT
> ...bites the dust...
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Stephan
> 2003 Yamaha R6

Anywhere, anytime, anyone of us.

Best wishes for a full recovery.

Byan
Mike - 28 Nov 2006 03:12 GMT
>...bites the dust...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Lacerated Kidney and spleen, broken shoulder, some kinda back injury,
>punctured lung and two broken libs...

I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
fast. Can't say it enought times.  Take the MSF course.

Regards

Mike

Go Bears!

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BryanUT - 28 Nov 2006 03:24 GMT
> I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
> recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Mike

B.S. - Please explain how the MSF course would have helped.

I have taken the MSF Basic Rider Course, it was fun, not very stressful, and
not too expensive.  Not a "bad" thing at all.

But, it is no panacea of safe, controlled riding, at speed.  Everyone needs
a "oh sh.t, I'm going to die" moment.  If you need more than one moment,
well, you've used up all your good karma.

Bryan

Who has come to realize the MSF is a monoply and farce.  More power to the
entreupenors (sp?) that made it happen.  Enjoy the $.
Tweak - 28 Nov 2006 14:25 GMT
> > I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
> > recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> a "oh sh.t, I'm going to die" moment.  If you need more than one moment,
> well, you've used up all your good karma.

You jest, right?  There is probably a formula we could work out, you
know, something like: every 12,356 miles you will experience an "Oh
sh.t" moment.

Signature

Tweak

Saddlebag - 28 Nov 2006 16:33 GMT
> > > I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
> > > recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> know, something like: every 12,356 miles you will experience an "Oh
> sh.t" moment.

He needs to do more commuting. I have about three per ride to work. At
least I'm usually wide awake when I get there.
Bryan - 28 Nov 2006 17:27 GMT
> > > > I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
> > > > recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> He needs to do more commuting. I have about three per ride to work. At
> least I'm usually wide awake when I get there.

Sorry for the confusion.

I wasn't trying to imply there will be only "oh sh.t" moment while
riding.

I was trying to say that you should only need one moment to realize the
dangers we encounter while riding.  I don't ever want or need an oh
sh.t moment again. I am sure I'll have them again, but I don't need to
learn the lesson again.

Probably still clear as mud, oh well.

Bryan
Andrew - 28 Nov 2006 21:22 GMT
>>>>> I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
>>>>> recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Bryan

In order to keep from having oh sh.t moments, I generally think about
the laws of physics and where I'll end up if I lowside and where I;ll
end up with the inertia I'm carrying, usually it's a tree or rock, and I
figure how much force I'll hit it with.  That generally stops my oh sh.t 
moments from happening.

Signature

Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Infant

BrianNZ - 28 Nov 2006 21:30 GMT
>>>>>> I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
>>>>>> recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> figure how much force I'll hit it with.  That generally stops my oh sh.t 
> moments from happening.

What a depressing day out riding you must have.......analising all
possible bad scenarios as you ride along.

I don't have time to worry about all the 'what ifs'....I just look as
far ahead as I can, and if the end of the road is coming towards me, I
brake, if it's going away from me, I speed up.

I'd be (more of) a mental wreck if I tried to concern myself with whats
off the road....I'm not going there so it's not worth worrying about.

Iv'e found that smooth riding reduces the 'oh sh.t' moments to nearly
zero...
Jamin - 30 Nov 2006 00:38 GMT
> I was trying to say that you should only need one moment to realize the
> dangers we encounter while riding.  I don't ever want or need an oh
> sh.t moment again. I am sure I'll have them again, but I don't need to
> learn the lesson again.

But this seems to imply that there's only one lesson to learn: "motorcycles
can be dangerous". There are many situations where they can be more
dangerous than usual, that often people don't realize the dangers until
they've either heard stories or had those experience themselves.

My point is that one scary moment isn't going to teach you everything you
need to know about riding safely.

And my other point is that it's possible to learn from others' experiences
if you seek out the instruction, whether it's a well-written book or a
professionally conducted class.

Learning from others' mistakes (or near mistakes) often works, although
learning while under stress usually has a more lasting effect, which would
support your idea that everyone needs to have their own close calls to truly
get the message.

MSF training could have been helpful. I can't see how it would have made
things worse. But if a person relatively new to riding decides to enter a
corner at near 90 mph, it's obvious that safety and prudence weren't major
factors in the decision. That's a problem with impulse control.

Exuberance overriding common sense. It happens all the time with people
(especially younger ones) doing anything exciting, whether it's motorcycling
or skateboarding or having unprotected sex and making unexpected babies.

Signature

Jamin
"I don't want a pickle..."

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

BryanUT - 30 Nov 2006 01:14 GMT
> But this seems to imply that there's only one lesson to learn:
> "motorcycles
> can be dangerous". There are many situations where they can be more
> dangerous than usual, that often people don't realize the dangers until
> they've either heard stories or had those experience themselves.

That is true.

> My point is that one scary moment isn't going to teach you everything you
> need to know about riding safely.

Yep, ya can't ever stop learning.
> And my other point is that it's possible to learn from others' experiences
> if you seek out the instruction, whether it's a well-written book or a
> professionally conducted class.

That is very true.  But a "professionally conducted" class is way better
than a book.

> Learning from others' mistakes (or near mistakes) often works, although
> learning while under stress usually has a more lasting effect, which would
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> corner at near 90 mph, it's obvious that safety and prudence weren't major
> factors in the decision. That's a problem with impulse control.

Never said it (MSF) made it worse.

In addition to the MSF, I have taken an advanced rider course put on by the
local sportbike club.

> Exuberance overriding common sense. It happens all the time with people
> (especially younger ones) doing anything exciting, whether it's
> motorcycling
> or skateboarding or having unprotected sex and making unexpected babies.

Even us "old farts" suffer from "exuberance" (cool word), and thus my "oh
sh.t, I am going to die" moment.  I'll never do THAT again, hehe.

But that one moment taught me many lessons, which I use daily while NOT
riding since it is a snow covered 15f here in lovely SLC, UT.

I am just not as impressed with the MSF as I was in the past.

Bryan
Stephan Rose - 30 Nov 2006 01:27 GMT
>But that one moment taught me many lessons, which I use daily while NOT
>riding since it is a snow covered 15f here in lovely SLC, UT.
>
>I am just not as impressed with the MSF as I was in the past.

I still believe the MSF (or some other kind of formal trading) should
be MANDATORY for every rider..period. The MSF is pretty weak compared
to the training here in Germany, and I only got the short-version of
it, but it sure is better than what the DMV does which is essentially
nothing...

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
Jamin - 30 Nov 2006 02:31 GMT
> Even us "old farts" suffer from "exuberance" (cool word), and thus my "oh
> sh.t, I am going to die" moment.  I'll never do THAT again, hehe.

I'll take your word on the "old farts" comment. ;) I've got a couple decades
to catch up to you, I think. I have those moments from time to time, get a
little too rowdy at whatever it is I'm doing. I'm getting better at
recognizing it when it happens, though.

> I am just not as impressed with the MSF as I was in the past.

I know what you mean. It's definitely not where you'd go to learn
performance oriented riding.

In the past, you were a less experienced rider. Easier to impress, probably.
Also in the past, there weren't nearly as many sources of information for
advanced rider training, so the MSF didn't have much to be compared to.

I think the MSF courses serve a good purpose, namely to get people who have
zero experience at least functionally competent on a motorcycle.

Signature

Jamin
"I don't want a pickle..."

BryanUT - 30 Nov 2006 03:47 GMT
> I'll take your word on the "old farts" comment. ;) I've got a couple
> decades
> to catch up to you, I think. I have those moments from time to time, get a
> little too rowdy at whatever it is I'm doing. I'm getting better at
> recognizing it when it happens, though.

That is the only thing (reconginition) that gets better  with age.  Until
demetia sets in. :)

>> I am just not as impressed with the MSF as I was in the past.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Also in the past, there weren't nearly as many sources of information for
> advanced rider training, so the MSF didn't have much to be compared to.

True, it is still easy to fall for the appeal to "authority", a logical
fallacy that will get you in trouble.

> I think the MSF courses serve a good purpose, namely to get people who
> have
> zero experience at least functionally competent on a motorcycle.

True again.  My main complaint with the MSF is its monoply grip on the DMVs
around the country.

The MSF is relatively inexpensive, and is useful, but I'd rather have the
option to pay more and get more, and still get that damn endorsement for my
license.

Bryan
DaveG - 28 Nov 2006 21:24 GMT
>> I don't like back injuries. If not for that she could have a full
>> recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Who has come to realize the MSF is a monoply and farce.  More power to the
> entreupenors (sp?) that made it happen.  Enjoy the $.

Your right Bryan, I can't imagine some *training* would have helped this
situation at all.... She should just go out and wing it, oh wait she
already did. <roll eyes>.

DaveG
Castle Rock, CO
BryanUT - 29 Nov 2006 00:53 GMT
> Your right Bryan, I can't imagine some *training* would have helped this
> situation at all.... She should just go out and wing it, oh wait she
> already did. <roll eyes>.
>
> DaveG
> Castle Rock, CO

Gee, I stated that MSF training would not have helped.  Other training may
have helped.

Bryan
DaveG - 29 Nov 2006 18:29 GMT
>> Your right Bryan, I can't imagine some *training* would have helped this
>> situation at all.... She should just go out and wing it, oh wait she
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Bryan

Gee, perhaps you should try supporting your claim. The MSF course does
teach about corner entry speed and how one should be aware of it. From
the details Stephen provided, sounds like that info would have been
helpful for her. Apparently you don't?

DaveG
Castle Rock, CO
Stephan Rose - 29 Nov 2006 19:02 GMT
>>> Your right Bryan, I can't imagine some *training* would have helped this
>>> situation at all.... She should just go out and wing it, oh wait she
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>the details Stephen provided, sounds like that info would have been
>helpful for her. Apparently you don't?

I'd agree...that info would have been extremely helpful!!

I have a few more bits of info now...she entered the corner at about
80-90 miles an hour and ended up going into a tree. I don't know how
tight this corner is but apparently it was too much!

From what I hear she seems to be doing better now but did sustain
quite a few major injuries from that impact.

Makes me wonder if I had been there yet if I could have prevented it
as it was my intention to go talk to her once I am back in Florida and
see where her skill level is at. Knowing her and seeing the bike she
was riding I did not believe that she could handle it.

This is one of those times where I truly do hate being right...

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
Jamin - 30 Nov 2006 00:39 GMT
> I'd agree...that info would have been extremely helpful!!
>
> I have a few more bits of info now...she entered the corner at about
> 80-90 miles an hour and ended up going into a tree. I don't know how
> tight this corner is but apparently it was too much!

Too much for her skill level, obviously.

> From what I hear she seems to be doing better now but did sustain
> quite a few major injuries from that impact.

That's good news. The body is wonderfully resilient and pretty good at
fixing itself.

> Makes me wonder if I had been there yet if I could have prevented it
> as it was my intention to go talk to her once I am back in Florida and
> see where her skill level is at. Knowing her and seeing the bike she
> was riding I did not believe that she could handle it.
>
> This is one of those times where I truly do hate being right...

Can I ask, did you tell her your concerns about her ability to ride that
bike safely? Usually people don't want to hear that kind of thing, but
usually that's when they NEED to hear it the most.

Signature

Jamin
"I don't want a pickle..."

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Stephan Rose - 30 Nov 2006 01:24 GMT
>> I'd agree...that info would have been extremely helpful!!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>Too much for her skill level, obviously.

I also found out that she must have been the last one following in the
group she was riding in because nobody even knew she crashed until
they all came to a stop at a stop light and noticed she was missing...

My guess...the group was riding way over her skill level and she was
attempting to keep up...

>> From what I hear she seems to be doing better now but did sustain
>> quite a few major injuries from that impact.
>>
>That's good news. The body is wonderfully resilient and pretty good at
>fixing itself.

Yes it truly is amazing how much damage the body can sustain!

>> Makes me wonder if I had been there yet if I could have prevented it
>> as it was my intention to go talk to her once I am back in Florida and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>bike safely? Usually people don't want to hear that kind of thing, but
>usually that's when they NEED to hear it the most.

No, I wish I could have. Unfortunately I have not talked to her in
over a year and have no means of contacting her myself. I found out
about all this from her ex boyfriend who is a very good friend of
mine. He mentioned to me she had gotten a new bike a couple weeks ago
and that is when I made the plans to contact her once I am back in
Florida and talk to her. Apparently its too late for that though =(

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
Jamin - 30 Nov 2006 02:38 GMT
> I also found out that she must have been the last one following in the
> group she was riding in because nobody even knew she crashed until
> they all came to a stop at a stop light and noticed she was missing...
>
> My guess...the group was riding way over her skill level and she was
> attempting to keep up...

Good guess. That happens a lot when the inexperienced person is at the back.
It's always a good idea to explain to the whole group that everyone should
ride their own ride, and that nobody will be left behind at critical turns,
it's not a race, etc. It's also a good idea to put an experienced rider at
the back to ride "sweep" and help keep an eye on any rookies.

> No, I wish I could have. Unfortunately I have not talked to her in
> over a year and have no means of contacting her myself. I found out
> about all this from her ex boyfriend who is a very good friend of
> mine. He mentioned to me she had gotten a new bike a couple weeks ago
> and that is when I made the plans to contact her once I am back in
> Florida and talk to her. Apparently its too late for that though =(

It's rough when friends get hurt. But if you have experience to share that
you think could help her future riding, it's not too late to have those
conversations. You'll have her as a captive audience now that she's laid up
in a hospital bed. ;)

Signature

Jamin
"I don't want a pickle..."

Tweak - 29 Nov 2006 19:44 GMT
> >> Your right Bryan, I can't imagine some *training* would have helped this
> >> situation at all.... She should just go out and wing it, oh wait she
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> DaveG
> Castle Rock, CO

MSF course isn't going to help with someone intent on riding way over
their head.
Signature

Tweak

Stephan Rose - 28 Nov 2006 03:33 GMT
>>...bites the dust...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>recovery.  Was she wearing proper riding attire? I hope she heals
>fast. Can't say it enought times.  Take the MSF course.

Honestly...don't know what, if any, gear she was wearing.

I hope she'll heal fast as well.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
 
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