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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / May 20071200 Twins in WSBK for 2008!
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ > http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ Not surprised in the least. The FIM has always and will always cater to European manufacturers where ever possible and practical. And keeping Ducati involved in WSB is - from the FIM's viewpoint - completely necessary. It'll be interested to see if - after a season of Ducati being absent as a factory team - AMA Superbike promulgates similar rules for twins for 2008. On May 28, 12:12 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > as a factory team - AMA Superbike promulgates similar rules for twins > for 2008. big v twins are a wonderful thang... like a good woman, its not how fast in the end, its the quality experience over the long term that counts. Phil scott > http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ Just more, "give the Italians what they want BS". A sad comantary for one on one racing. IOW, more of the old Ducati Cup-two step routine to once again ruin the WSB class. Let's hope AMA racing doesn't follow suit. Saddle, I know you're going to comeback with a comment about the 675 cheating too but at least, so far, Triumph is far from dominating the SS classes. Hell, Triumph won't even support racing, let alone cheat to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with direct injection ect, now. > >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with > direct injection ect, now. Some people see racing as some sort of religious experience wherein at least one of the deities to be worshipped is engine displacement. Myself, being a practical fellow, I see it as entertainment. To the people responsible for making a buck from the spectacle, it's all about getting butts in the seats or eyeballs on the screen. The more manufacturers you can get in the show, the larger your potential audience. Suzuki may be able to do the best with a 1000cc engine, but from the dismal attendance it doesn't appear that too many care. BTW, this isn't MotoGP, the WSBK are based on production motorcycles. As it stands now, the twins are getting a break by being allowed to use high dollar (light weight) engine pieces that the IL4s can't. Ducatis main complaint is that it costs them a fortune to rebuild their engines. As long as the bikes are built to fall within some common power to weight tolerance I say drop the flag and enjoy the show. Oh, and please forgive my blasphomy to the engine displacement god. > to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with > direct injection ect, now. Who cares if they run clean - MotoGP should be all 2-stroke. - Kurt > > to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in > > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with > > direct injection ect, now. > > Who cares if they run clean - MotoGP should be all 2-stroke. Because... >> > to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in >> > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Because... Because they were BEASTS!! >>> > to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in >>> > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Because they were BEASTS!! I've only seen the 4strokes run in person; but they were pretty damn impressive. I've watched the local 250 races a couple of times; I prefer the booming 4 stroke sound. The Kawi was coolest sounding of the 990's in person, IMO. You could feel it deep down in your chest when Nakano was coming! I haven't heard the 800's in person.  SignatureAndrew 00 Daytona 00 Speed Triple 71 Kawi H1 05 Infant > The Kawi was coolest sounding of the 990's in person, IMO. Agreed. It sounded menacing. SignatureJamin "I don't want a pickle..." -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > >> > to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in > >> > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Because they were BEASTS!! So, you would bring them back but outlaw any traction management technology? On May 28, 6:53 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > > "saddlebag" <saddle...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > - Show quoted text Certainly not Tim! 2-strokes would require traction management wven more than thye current four strokes BECAUSE they WERE such BEASTS:) > Certainly not Tim! 2-strokes would require traction management wven > more than thye current four strokes BECAUSE they WERE such BEASTS:) And no traction control either.... BTW, is it harder to implement traction control on a 2-stroke? Was it just a coincidence that the 2-strokes met their demise a year or two before traction control really became commonly used in the FIM GP? The technology has been around for ages - did they just never apply it to 2-strokes for some reason? - Kurt >> >> > to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in >> >> > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > So, you would bring them back but outlaw any traction management > technology? Damn straight. I want to see the best man tame the wildest beast with no electronic help of any kind. > <tomor...@erols.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Damn straight. I want to see the best man tame the wildest beast with no > electronic help of any kind. I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and LeMans style start for all races! On May 28, 10:39 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > > <tomor...@erols.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and > LeMans style start for all races! Drum brakes and hard tails too! >> >> > Because... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and > LeMans style start for all races! Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where some poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming by him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the people participating. Kick start would work for me as long as everyone is safe while they are trying to do it, but it seems like it would negate a superior rider qualifying by actually RIDING rather than the quick start capabilities of his motorcycle. I say qualify, and then give some reasonable advantage to the guy who does best. Starting at the front of an otherwise equal starting time like the current system seems about right. But the kick start would really screw that up...maybe? Whats the space difference between one guy starting on the first kick and someone starting on the third? Enough to lose all advantage for having qualified best, for sure. And I think that should count for more. > Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where some > poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming by > him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the > people participating. While I don't like LeMans style starts, electric starters and batteries are just a waste of space and weight. The two-strokes are so light bump starting them is easy enough. And anyone with the heavier 500 cc bike is going to be able to afford an external starter (or make their own). - Kurt > >> >> > Because... > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the > people participating. So are 500cc 2-strokes without traction control. >> > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and >> > LeMans style start for all races! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So are 500cc 2-strokes without traction control. You can't mitigate all risk in racing. Learning to manhandle a monster race machine around the track is what the game is all about, not who can better dodge oncoming high speed traffic. > >> > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and > >> > LeMans style start for all races! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You can't mitigate all risk in racing. Learning to manhandle a monster race > machine around the track is what the game is all about You might want to read what the racers who ride Grand Prix motorcycles have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT. >> >> > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, >> >> > and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just > that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT. Summary please. Did they appear to like it? Did they complain about how unmanageable it was? Did they think knitting competitions would replace racing, in the interests of making it safe for everyone but sheep? I can't really say I have any skin in the game myself, as long as its mostly fair, as long as better talent can make up for a slightly inferior machine, and people are free to make their inferior machines less inferior for a reasonable cost, and the more people who can run at the top levels the better. On May 29, 10:41 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > > >> > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and > > >> > LeMans style start for all races! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just > that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT. There are many that would like racing to be like a video game. Crash and you pay for a new bike and hit reset. IMO part of racing is being willing to risk the consequences of exceeding the limits. I have no problem with traction control though. The better rider can still prevail when everyone has it. Tame the beast too much and it will be slow. On May 29, 11:53 pm, "bsr3...@my-deja.com" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote: > On May 29, 10:41 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > There are many that would like racing to be like a video game. Crash > and you pay for a new bike and hit reset. Didn't say that. But, having raced at the club level and knowing what happens when you crash, and having seen good people race hard, crash, and be killed on the track, and having seen other good friends crash and be permanently disabled, I could easily watch racing for the rest of my life without ever seeing another crash and be perfectly happy. > IMO part of racing is being > willing to risk the consequences of exceeding the limits. Yep. But there's no reason to intentionally make the consequences of exceeding the limits more brutal than they have to be. IMO, outlawing traction control is no different than outlawing air fences or back protectors. > I have no problem with traction control though. The better rider can still > prevail when everyone has it. I agree, 100%. > Tame the beast too much and it will be slow. There doesn't appear to be a danger of that at any level of motorcycle roadracing. > You might want to read what the racers who ride Grand Prix motorcycles > have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just > that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT. Rossi also commented some time back that traction control is the only reason some of the youngsters are able to come out there on their first year and make such a huge impression. To quote Rossi from memory, "...zee 500, the first time you are on it, it ees like, Fack!!!" Personally, I would like to see an international 500cc 2-stroke class. Let MotoGP continue with bleeding edge technology and electronics. But have a brutal analog 2-stroke class out there. Despite what riders may have to say about traction control and whatnot, I'm sure you won't find any lack of willing riders. One reason is WSB and MotoGP are just going to continue to converge over time in terms of performance. Another is the 500GP riders are more god-like. - Kurt > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > have to say about traction control and whatnot, I'm sure you won't find > any lack of willing riders. You certainly wouldn't. There's no shortage of bull fighters, either. > Because... Because the elite riders should be riding the elite machines. 2-strokes are pure race engines - simple yet very sophisticated. Plus, it further separates MotoGP(500) hardware from WSB. - Kurt > > Because... > > Because the elite riders should be riding the elite machines. 2-strokes > are pure race engines - simple yet very sophisticated. Plus, it further > separates MotoGP(500) hardware from WSB. MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary displacement rule, downsize the current MotoGP engines to 500cc. For that matter, let's go back to having 500cc, 350cc, and 125cc GP classes ... all four strokes. Think of the engines that Honda would build. The mind boggles! > MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement - therefore they are more pure. - Kurt > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > > > MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary > > 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement > - therefore they are more pure. Rocket propelled bikes are even purer. >> tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rocket propelled bikes are even purer. Why not just drop them all from 10,000' from the belly of a cargo plane and see who hits the ground first. Award them the trophy and we can all run off and watch AMA Superbike? >> 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement >> - therefore they are more pure. > > Rocket propelled bikes are even purer. I'd love to see someone build a rocket propelled bike that makes its way around the track faster than a MotoGP bike. Really, I would. It would be superior in some place like the salt flats, but that is it. Just like the motorcycle with the jet engine in it is a piece of sh.t in terms of overall performance. The internal combustion engine is your best bet for that type of power over the speeds we are talking. The same thing can be seen with aircraft. Turboprops outperform jet engines under certain flight regimes. If you want to build a raw, pure racebike, you drop the 4-stroke and go with the 2-stroke. - Kurt > If you want to build a raw, pure racebike, you drop the 4-stroke and > go with the 2-stroke. Well, opinions will vary on what a "raw, pure racebike" is, but the fact of the matter is that the manufacturers will race what they feel is in their best marketing interest to race. > Well, opinions will vary on what a "raw, pure racebike" is, but the > fact of the matter is that the manufacturers will race what they feel > is in their best marketing interest to race. I realize it is ultimately a matter of opinion, but in the end, if you want the most power with the least weight - 2-stroke. I hear some of the FIM GP 125 bikes are pushing 60 RWHP - that is pretty impressive. - Kurt > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > > Well, opinions will vary on what a "raw, pure racebike" is, but the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I realize it is ultimately a matter of opinion, but in the end, if you > want the most power with the least weight - 2-stroke. No argument if the ultimate goal is simply power to weight. >>> 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to >>> displacement [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - Kurt What about a Torquey electric motor? SignatureAndrew 00 Daytona 00 Speed Triple 71 Kawi H1 05 Infant > What about a Torquey electric motor? You'll know our electric future has arrived when people race electric motored cages around the Brickyard. Give me my Tesla!! > You'll know our electric future has arrived when people race electric > motored cages around the Brickyard. Give me my Tesla!! Electric powered vehicles probably won't make real gains until people do start racing them. - Kurt >> You'll know our electric future has arrived when people race electric >> motored cages around the Brickyard. Give me my Tesla!! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Kurt Thats what I figured too. > What about a Torquey electric motor? Maybe one day when they figure out how to power it for any length of time. I'm sure it would lead to a much more simple engine and transmission (if it even has a transmission). I'd be all for an electric motor - once they figure out how to power it That will be about the same time we create handheld (laser) blasters. - Kurt >> What about a Torquey electric motor? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > figure out how to power it That will be about the same time we create > handheld (laser) blasters. Turbine-electric hybrid. > Turbine-electric hybrid. I believe they have great potential for automobiles and larger vehicles. Not so sure about motorcycles.... - Kurt >> What about a Torquey electric motor? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Kurt We need to get Doc to make us a "Mr. Fusion" generator. SignatureHeaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss. Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians. http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/ > > MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary > > 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement > - therefore they are more pure. Alright what if : no displacement limits OR fuel choice---100 lbs engine/trans restriction. 2 strokes, wankle or ??? Green class: no restrictions EXCEPT minimun fuel milage of 50 mpg using regular gas (87 octane)...Which engine technology wins ??? > > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Green class: no restrictions EXCEPT minimun fuel milage of 50 mpg using regular gas (87 > octane)...Which engine technology wins ??? Speaking of Ducati big twins, has yours been burning up the Oregon countryside lately? > > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Green class: no restrictions EXCEPT minimun fuel milage of 50 mpg using regular gas (87 > octane)...Which engine technology wins ??? This is a great idea Brutus but I fear they'd just get lazy about it and jerry rig a small turbo four stroke instead of modern two strokes (closed crackcase, direct injected & turbo/supercharged)=(like Diesel two strokes) or further development of Wankels (ceramic rotors/ceramic coated rotor housings, better compression sealing, and sh.t kick a cooling system altogether). > Alright what if : no displacement limits OR fuel choice---100 lbs engine/trans restriction. 2 > strokes, wankle or ??? I'd be all for an unlimited international class where there are no restrictions. The manufacturers wouldn't like it though - it would cost way too much. - Kurt > >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with > direct injection ect, now. a two stroke is like a 2 dollar crack whore... fast, mean and cheap...but not with any grace. :) > > >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :) With all due respect Phil, I thought you were a smart feller at the core. IOW, you don't know anything about two strokes other than the old "weed eater" crankcase scavenged type of two stroke engine! There are so many ways you can design a two stroke that it would boggle your mind. 1) closed crankcase super+turbocharged variety. (intake ports and 4 exhaust valve) 2) same as above but identical to a DOHC four sttoke but with a blower/ turbocharger. 3) Two piston single two strokes (one's a pumper piston). 4) Newer versions (direct cylinder injected versions) of the old crankcase scavenged two strokes but they're envirnmentally cleaner than most four stoke. (search Evenrude's site for more info). That was just a few! On top of all this common two strokes have a resonant pressure exhaust system that acts as a supercharger with no moving parts that also makes them run cleaner. IOW, with a geometric compression ratio of 10:1 diregarding the exhaust port, this is reduced to 6-7:1 when the exhaust port closure is considered. However, with a resonant expansion chamber the compression ratio may go as high as the 14:1 or the limit of spark ignited engines. And let's not forget the elegance of them using both sides of the piston to do the same amount of work as a four stroke engine. With direct injection and good transfer port baffling of oil, modern two strokes burn very little oil. In fact ,future models may go to a dry sump oiling system instead of total loss lubrication. Phil, these later models are not cheap $2 crack whores rather at least as expensive to design and build as a DOHC 4 stroke engine. > > > >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > - Show quoted text - my remarks were tongue in cheek, stemming from my experiences with the 450 husky, 360 bultaco (no one but malcom smith could ride the husky...it was like riding a box full of hand grenades)...and a real peice of crap the kwasaki 750cc triple.... and of course my predilection to 4 stroke thumpers and that world class american iron, buell... the worlds fastest, best handling production motorcycle. hope that heps. Having said that, nothing can beat HD on the mile dirt ovals.... too much raw power, and charisma :)... those tin can smokers were just a passing fad...thats why they were outlawed. Phil Scott >> > > >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ >> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > ...peice of crap the kwasaki 750cc triple.... > I have a piece of crap kwaker 500 triple in the garage. :-) > Having said that, nothing can beat HD on the mile dirt ovals.... too > much raw power, and charisma :)... those tin can smokers were just a > passing fad...thats why they were outlawed. Did you see this? http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=10870 SignatureAndrew 00 Daytona 00 Speed Triple 71 Kawi H1 05 Infant > With all due respect Phil, I thought you were a smart feller at the > core. Oh Bob.....are you SERIOUS?! Heck, I thought it didn't take longer than his first "layin'er down" episode to get Filbert figured out, and then all his anal probing enjoyment stories and china.com investment advice pretty much sealed the deal. >> With all due respect Phil, I thought you were a smart feller at the >> core. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > his anal probing enjoyment stories and china.com investment advice pretty > much sealed the deal. china.com; forgot about that one. :-) SignatureAndrew 00 Daytona 00 Speed Triple 71 Kawi H1 05 Infant > http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/ 1200c limit for WSBK is good for Ducati's CEO who gambled everything on the slow and ponderous V2 but it's bad for the consumer who really wants the choice of a powerful and a light weight V4 gleaned form the MotoGp wars... Larry L 94 RC45 #2 Have a wheelie NICE day... Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life... If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust... V4'S are music to the seat of my pants... 1952 De Havilland Chipmunk... Yank and bank your brains loose... http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/ http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/ http://www.fox302.com/index.pl?s=vg&user=netters2 http://www.reeky.org/gallery/xlax http://www.flickr.com/photos/55532474@N00/?saved=1 > 1200c limit for WSBK is good for Ducati's CEO who gambled everything > on the slow and ponderous V2 but it's bad for the consumer who really > wants the choice of a powerful and a light weight V4 gleaned form the > MotoGp wars... Yeah, but they don't want old and underpowered ones, particular if the entrance fee is 3X everyone elses entry fee. |
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