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Motorcycle Forum / General / Sportbikes / October 2007Ducati tech & MGP
If you get this rag, the article is written by Kevin Cameron called "Tales of the Testastretta". Basically Ducati ran up against a RPM limit of 12,200RPM due to excessive valve train vibration /resonance at this speed on their 996. At that time they'd apparently been using ball & roller bearings somewhere up top and the result was a lack of stiffness that was fixed by going to plain bearings and tightening clearances. Anyway this is plolly the main reason that those big twins are relatively competitive on a one up basis with 4's in WSB. Theoretically twins can never match 4-cylinder high RPM performance and 4's can never match the low RPM twin performance. This is due to VE=high velocity flow, area rule & size/weight in their perspective valve train vs. piston sizes but apparently Ducati has come closer to a theoretical max for a big valve engine than anyone else due to optimizing their desmodromic valve trains. However, torque curves don't lie and they still start to lose steam up top compared to the four cylinder bikes that are running up to 18K RPM with valve spring technology as are the V4 Ducati's when they're scaled down to the size of the rest of the fours. Actually I believe some of the MGP 800cc mfgs are using pneumatic valve actuation now. Someone suggested that Ducati made better MGP frames but watching the races during this year, the Ducati's seemed to have more power down the straights (kind of like Spies & Maladdin running away from the fact in AMS SB), so I think the Ducati fours were making considerably more power than the rest, else Rossi and the boys would have had a better chance keeping up. It's been clearly a technical cue this year for Ducati & company & not necessarily just better riding, like back when Rossi switched to riding for Yamaha instead of the superior HP V5 of Honda. If you don't like technically related stuff (which many of you don't in AMS) then skip this one ...No one's posted a new thread since Sunday, I believe, so consider this filler for a news group hell bound of sub thread jacking (mostly OT political or gory in nature). Bob Nixon. PS. I know there is one more race in Sepang this season but things are pretty well sewed of for the winner-:) > If you get this rag, the article is written by Kevin Cameron called > "Tales of the Testastretta". [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > more power than the rest, else Rossi and the boys would have had a > better chance keeping up. Proof is in the results, if you check the top speeds, Dani P's Honda usually was in the same ball park as the Ducs. The Ducati's have a better package this season=rider/bike/tires. Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is biased towards the lastest/maybe greatest. One advantage that a chrome moly frame has over an aluminum frame is the ease of fabrication. It's much easier to change the frame geometry and alternative issues like side loading, engine placement etc.The aluminum frames require new castings ... It's been clearly a technical cue this year > for Ducati & company & not necessarily just better riding, like back > when Rossi switched to riding for Yamaha instead of the superior HP V5 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > PS. I know there is one more race in Sepang this season but things are > pretty well sewed of for the winner-:) > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is > biased towards the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alternative issues like side > loading, engine placement etc.The aluminum frames require new castings ... Depending on the requirements, there are plenty of times and places where old tech is either equal-to or better-than the newest stuff. For instance, in my job I frequently use a hard-wired early '60s technology Strobo-Tuner: an electronic instrument that detects tiny variations in the pitch of a musical note, and then displays them in an analog fashion using a neon strobe light and a spinning translucent disc. It's true that the equivalent modern digital instrument is considerably more accurate, but the Strobo-Tuner can already "hear" pitch more precisely than can the human ear, so that point is moot. But the old analog Strobo-Tuner does something that it's modern offspring cannot do: it can display a note's entire spectrum of harmonics from the fundamental up, including their relative motions, all on the same screen and all at the same time; while the digital tuners are limited to displaying only one frequency at a time, and if they *did* include enough dedicated readouts to display all the harmonics at once they'd be almost impossible to read, not to mention impossibly expensive. There's also the fact that my trusty old Strobo-Tuner has no solid-state components, and when it breaks down -as it has a few times- you can simply open it up and replace the bad part or parts with a soldering iron. When your modern computer-driven digital tuner goes belly-up, you have to toss the whole thing in the trash and go buy a new one for a couple of hundred bucks. I think engineers sometimes get carried away with designing and building new things simply because they're new, rather than asking themselves "Does this thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be practically utilized on the job?" > > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is > > biased towards the [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be > practically utilized on the job?" Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you drop it than a spinning disc. And what use are harmonics (out to 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just keep turning the key and plucking no? In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never had to solder anything to it. The real showcase of old tech is the desmo system that has one yet another championship. > > > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is > > > biased towards the [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never > had to solder anything to it. >The real showcase of old tech is the > desmo system that has one yet another championship. But the desmo valve activation system is more modern then the valve spring system it repalced :-) I have to also admit that I'm also into tube technology :) One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the digital instrument display. It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian daylight conditions, although I'm sure that it's just a poor implementation. Probably a weight/cost saving issue in the Ducati engineering and production departments decision making, after all we gotta keep the price down on this 15K bike. > One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the > digital instrument display. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > keep the price down on > this 15K bike. I've never liked digital displays, on instruments, on stereo equipment, on speedos or tachs. In the split second you can spare to glance at your instrument panel, a needle can give a lot of info whereas it takes longer to process the digital info. Also on my VFR I can "sort of" see the tach needle out of the corner of my eye without taking my eyes off the road. No way you can do that with a digital readout. > > > > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is > > > > biased towards the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > the whole thing in the trash and go buy a new one for a couple of hundred > > > bucks. Same on a bike with an old analog cable speedometer. My RZ-350 speedo is dead nuts to over 110MPH compared to a GPS unit. > > > I think engineers sometimes get carried away with designing and building new > > > things simply because they're new, rather than asking themselves "Does this > > > thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be > > > practically utilized on the job?" Certainly true but more often than not, new technology is generally a GOOD thing. > > Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you > > drop it than a spinning disc. And what use are harmonics (out to > > 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just > > keep turning the key and plucking no? Actually even unheard (odd order) harmonics can make music sound richer, with greater spatial content and add a more realistic quality. > > In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little > > solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > But the desmo valve activation system is more modern then the valve spring system it repalced :- Sure is. Those old Dusenberg model J's from the 30's with supercharger and desmodromic actuated valves were well after either early vacuum actuated intake valves or cam & spring steel tech to keep tension on the valve during it's operation. BTW, another old technology that was in some ways is better than poppet valves is the sleeve valve engine which allows > volume to pass when opened. However the Jet engine was overtaking the old radial piston designs so "Bristol" a British AC company dropped the design in Lou of jet engines in the late 40's. The sleeve valve had it's problems but so did Desmodromics throughout the years of refinement. I think you'll find that lots of superior designs went by the wayside due to various reasons. For instance, the two stroke and Wankel engines are IMO "potentially" superior to the wasteful four stroke engine but both designer laziness and more importantly public opinion against their bad (unrefined qualities) has doomed them both. The Diesel is a good example of having a bad stigma surrounding it due to smoke, noise and poor cold weather operation but because the Diesel design is SO superior in other respects the world could not afford to ignore it and with new technology has been reborn or at least so outside the stodgy USA truck only perspective. > I have to also admit that I'm also into tube technology :) I recall you mentioning that awhile back, Brutus. Are you also into all non-ferrous connectors etc and silver litz speaker wires @ >$2000 a pop for 12 footers? Anyway for a guy in his 60's (who typically has limited hearing range of maybe 12-15K) anyway, what's the sense? And old records that have a 50-60db max dynamic range and are limited to about 40 db stereo separation;) Also don't those old analog transformers in tube power amps limit the low end to about FM radio quality or 50HZ before they taking a nosedive? But so...so sweet sounding, eh? But hell, I'm not one to tell you how to spend your $$. I love music too but mainly for it's quality of either the message purveyed and or the emotional content (now much it stirs your soul) and I'm perfectly content with my mid-fi priced multi channel gear with plain old copper speaker wire and at best a FET=(works harmonically very similar to a vacuum tube) integrated Dolby 5:1,DTS amplifier. I'm also not such a snob to not banish compressed music as long as it's sampled at least 160K. > One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the digital instrument display. > It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian daylight conditions, although > I'm sure that it's just a poor implementation. Probably a weight/cost saving issue in the Ducati > engineering and production departments decision making, after all we gotta keep the price down on > this 15K bike. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bah... that's a hoot. $ Try $20K minimum OTD if you want them to put out >135HP. Bob Nixon. > > > > > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is > > > > > biased towards the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Certainly true but more often than not, new technology is generally a > GOOD thing. In general you're on target but in many cases??? I used to walk to work everyday when it was raining (something that we still have up here Bob:) and found that my old oiled cotton jacket would breathe/ventilate better then my hot sh.t REI gortex jacket...Wool shirts still work for me etc.... > > > Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you > > > drop it than a spinning disc. And what use are harmonics (out to [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > with new technology has been reborn or at least so outside the stodgy > USA truck only perspective. I recently read a claim that if the U.S.of A. replaced all of it's vehicles with diesel engines we would not be dependant on Middle East oil.... praise Allah... > > I have to also admit that I'm also into tube technology :) > > I recall you mentioning that awhile back, Brutus. Are you also into > all non-ferrous connectors etc and silver litz speaker wires @ >$2000 > a pop for 12 footers? Yup, I'm into that level of sonic awareness, but on a strict DIY budget. Anyway for a guy in his 60's (who typically has > limited hearing range of maybe 12-15K) anyway, what's the sense? My hearing is not as good as it once way, however I hear pitch better then ever and can still hear very subtle background information. Much of this has to do with self training, it's like a pigmy who can spot the hunted game in a dense rain forest while you and I wouldn't notice, or you and I noticing the tell tales sign of an engine problem while the wifey (with better hearing) might not notice... And > old records that have a 50-60db max dynamic range and are limited to > about 40 db stereo separation;) Also don't those old analog [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Bah... that's a hoot. $ Try $20K minimum OTD if you want them to put > out >135HP. Bob, the standard 1098, not the black 1098S model that your 72 year old friend has, is no more then 16K OTD. The lowest hp figure that I've seen is 137hp and the highest is 145hp... Me thinks us pigmys can do allright with 140hp ;-) > Bob Nixon. > I recently read a claim that if the U.S.of A. replaced all of it's > vehicles with diesel engines we > would not be dependant on Middle East oil.... praise Allah... Only if we all grew our own corn/soybeans and refined the oil manually to make home-made bio"diesel". Otherwise... diesel oil is, as you must know, a petroleum product just like gasoline. The U.S. does not have the diesel refining capacity to swtich cars over to diesels all at once it would take many years to re-tool the refineries to produce more diesel and less gasoline. I recently took my wife's VW on a trip to San Francisco from Canada... it cost me about $60 each way for fuel at sixty-something mpg on the highway. Can't beat it. > > I recently read a claim that if the U.S.of A. replaced all of it's > > vehicles with diesel engines we [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Canada... it cost me about $60 each way for fuel at sixty-something mpg on > the highway. Can't beat it. I presume that's their point=better fuel milage...Impractical, you bet, hell we could even call for everyone to ride bicycles, yup, that get you elected..... We do have a modern technology to aleveate the problem, it's called birth-control... > We do have a modern technology to aleveate > the problem, it's called birth-control... Thank you. > One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the digital instrument display. > It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian daylight conditions Have you tried a tinted windscreen? I have a light tint Fabbri screen on mine, and it cuts the glare off of the instrument cluster. I have had no readability problems so far. -- DOD #4747 2007 Ducati 1098 2003 Kawasaki ZZR1200 1999 Kawasaki KLR650 >One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the >digital instrument display. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >gotta keep the price down on >this 15K bike. From what I've seen of it, it's the same sort of display the Honda VTR-1000 SP-1/2 (probably better known as the RC51 in the USA?) had. I've ridden one when I was looking for a replacement for my 2003 Aprilia RSV-1000R, and I found the dashboard to be horrible, and the rpm to be almost impossible to read. This was confirmed by several reviews I read about the bike, where this was one of the returning criticisms of the bike. (It had other problems, but these had nothing to do with the dash though. ;) I have no problems with turning all the info a dashboard can give you into digital displays, as long as the rpms are clearly visible, and done using a rotating needle. ;) Perhaps things will change if/when it's possible to include a high-contrast, high-resolution TFT-alike display in a dashboard... Regards, Patrick. On Oct 24, 10:34 am, Patrick Vervoorn <patrick.vervo...@NOSPAM.perihelion.demon.nl> wrote: > In article <13hf5fjj88lf...@corp.supernews.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Patrick. I prefer a digital speedo, with an analog tach. The triumph LCD dispaly on 06 and newer bikes is both easy to read, and feature rich. Though the mpg readings seem to be a bit optimistic... maybe they are not converting from imperial gallons...? > Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you > drop it than a spinning disc. Oddly enough, I seldom or never drop expensive electronic instruments. I call it "being careful". (And > And what use are harmonics (out to > 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just > keep turning the key and plucking no? No. Harmonics are what produce tonality, and having one badly out of whack can produce a "wolf note" that sounds both louder and harsher than the rest of the notes in the chromatic scale. Knowing which harmonic -or string- is out of synch can point you towards a cure. For instance, although it isn't a "wolf note" situation I've recently seen two Fender Strats on which the bass string produced such a strong 5th above harmonic that you could actually hear both notes sounding on every fret. Turned out to be incurable until we switched necks. > In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little > solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never > had to solder anything to it. For use as a tuner they work just fine. For use as an instrument used to detect -and hopefully define- tonal problems they're pretty much useless. > The real showcase of old tech is the > desmo system that has one yet another championship. There are lots of examples, and we use them every day, but we don't tend to think of them as being "old tech" simply because so far they've not been superceded. > > Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you > > drop it than a spinning disc. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > harmonic that you could actually hear both notes sounding on every fret. > Turned out to be incurable until we switched necks. Me thinks you're a perfectionist. Me, I drink another beer and turn up the distortion. > Me thinks you're a perfectionist. You spelled it wrong: it's not "perfectionist", it's "professional". http://www.banjowizard.com/Angelpics.htm > Me, I drink another beer and turn > up the distortion. You must have been an Allman Brothers fan in your youth. They once woke me up at 8:00 a.m. doing a soundcheck for their afternoon concert at Santa Barbara State University. (I think it was in 1966.) There were two unusual things about that: (A) they were awake enough to do a sound check at 8:00 a.m. and (B) the concert site was slightly over three miles line-of-sight away from the Santa Barbara Airport where I and my pit crew were camping out over night in the pits at the SCCA sports car races. The word *LOUD* doesn't begin to describe the amount of volume they put out. Later in the day, you could actually hear the band playing over the sounds of the entire class A & B production field at full cry. Amazing. > > Me thinks you're a perfectionist. > > You spelled it wrong: it's not "perfectionist", it's "professional". > > http://www.banjowizard.com/Angelpics.htm Craftsmen are cool. Volume is where the money's at though. > > Me, I drink another beer and turn > > up the distortion. > > You must have been an Allman Brothers fan in your youth. They once woke me > up at 8:00 a.m. doing a soundcheck for their afternoon concert at Santa > Barbara State University. (I think it was in 1966.) I was all of one then. I did enjoy Dicky Betts a few years back at Freedom Fest though. Funny how the druggies provide all the passion and innovation, but the disciplined always seem to perfect and milk that cow indefinitely... > There were two unusual things about that: (A) they were awake enough to do a > sound check at 8:00 a.m. and (B) the concert site was slightly over three [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Later in the day, you could actually hear the band playing over the sounds > of the entire class A & B production field at full cry. Loud, proud, and fuckin Cher like the bitch was endowed. >> http://www.banjowizard.com/Angelpics.htm > > Craftsmen are cool. Volume is where the money's at though. I figured out quite early that I was unlikely to become rich, so instead I did exactly what I wanted to do. Imagine my surprise when I ended up doing okay financially anyway. >> > Me, I drink another beer and turn >> > up the distortion. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I was all of one then. That's okay. If your mom had opened the widow to your room you'd have still been able to hear them, even on the east coast... |
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