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Motorcycle Forum / General / Technical / June 2007



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Tach for Honda CM450E

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novascroller - 23 Jun 2007 12:37 GMT
I miss not having a tach on a bike, is there an aftermarket company
that makes a tach that would fit on my '84 cm450e?  thanks.
The Older Gentleman - 23 Jun 2007 12:57 GMT
> I miss not having a tach on a bike, is there an aftermarket company
> that makes a tach that would fit on my '84 cm450e?  thanks.

Loads of companies sell electronic aftermarket tachometers. Just google.
None of them will be a perfect cosmetic match for your speedometer,
though.

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Albrecht - 23 Jun 2007 15:25 GMT
>I miss not having a tach on a bike

Then remove the tach and ride on, meditating on how less is more.

(Pssst! Wanna buy a cow, mister?)
novascroller - 23 Jun 2007 19:46 GMT
whoops my bad.  it should have been worded "i miss having a tach".  
sorry.

>>I miss not having a tach on a bike
>
>Then remove the tach and ride on, meditating on how less is more.
>
>(Pssst! Wanna buy a cow, mister?)
Ivan Vegvary - 23 Jun 2007 15:59 GMT
>I miss not having a tach on a bike, is there an aftermarket company
> that makes a tach that would fit on my '84 cm450e?  thanks.

Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to the
average rider.  Notice I said average.  Yeah, it's a nice instrument to look
at, but, never have I made a shift decision base on a tachometer reading.
Same for all my cars with tachs.  Especially my vehicles with automatic
transmissions.
Other than race participants, does anybody look at the tach for any useful
purpose?

Just wondering!

Ivan Vegvary
The Older Gentleman - 23 Jun 2007 17:08 GMT
> Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to the
> average rider.  Notice I said average.

On some bikes, it's pretty near essential. On others, it isn't.

> Yeah, it's a nice instrument to look
> at, but, never have I made a shift decision base on a tachometer reading.
> Same for all my cars with tachs.  Especially my vehicles with automatic
> transmissions.
> Other than race participants, does anybody look at the tach for any useful
> purpose?

See above. On my little 250, I don't miss it and don't need it. On my
Honda 400 Four, I sure do.

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BMW K1100LT  750SS  CB400F  CD250  SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5  The bells, the bells.....

Ivan Vegvary - 23 Jun 2007 18:44 GMT
>> Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to the
>> average rider.  Notice I said average.
>
> On some bikes, it's pretty near essential. On others, it isn't.
> See above. On my little 250, I don't miss it and don't need it. On my
> Honda 400 Four, I sure do.

Could you please explain.  Is your Honda 400 so quiet that the shift points
are not obvious.

Thanks,

Ivan Vegvary
The Older Gentleman - 23 Jun 2007 22:01 GMT
> >> Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to the
> >> average rider.  Notice I said average.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Could you please explain.  Is your Honda 400 so quiet that the shift points
> are not obvious.

No. It has a very peaky engine, which starts producing power around
6500rpm. Below that it's rather flat. It's also rather revvy and will
cheerfully (in the lower gears) spin into the red zone.

Now, in order to make progress, as it were, I really need to change up
around 7500rpm in order not to have the revs fall out of the power band.
When making fast progress, I change up a lot higher, and as it is a 30
year-old classic, I really don't like taking it into the red zone - and
preferably not within 1000 rpm of it.

The red zone starts at 10,000 rpm. My aged ears cannot tell the
difference between 9,000 and 10,000 rpm on a little four, and I doubt
yours can either.

Clear?

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Ivan Vegvary - 24 Jun 2007 01:36 GMT
>> >> Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to
>> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Clear?

Yes, clear.  Thank you!!

Ivan Vegvary
Albrecht - 23 Jun 2007 19:31 GMT
>Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to the
>average rider.  Notice I said average.

What is your hypothetical "average" rider forking these days? I doubt if it's
a mild-mannered 400cc commuter twin with a docile power band.  

More likely he's on a V-twin cruiser, where RPM doesn't matter and he doesn't
have a tach, or he's on a shrieking sportbike where a tach is essential, even
on the street.

>Yeah, it's a nice instrument to look
>at, but, never have I made a shift decision base on a tachometer reading.

The tach isn't there for styling purposes, it's a tool to be used by those
who understand how engine performance is affected by RPM, as well as the
effect
of excess RPM on mechanical stress.

If you double the RPM, the mechanical parts are stressed four times as highly.

The engineers design their parts to withstand X amount of mechanical stress
and add a safety factor of perhaps 2 or 3. Performance enthusiasts are going
to challenge the safety factors with lots of RPM.

One guy I used to ride with had a $ sign in the red zone of his Honda's
tachometer.

My first Honda didn't have a tachometer at all, but I read in the owner's
manual that it put out 20 horsepower at 10,000 RPM. I thought that was really
neat, I owned a motorcycle that would rev up to 10,000 RPM.

So I took it out onto the street and revved it up in first gear until it
screamed.

About two screaming runs like that broke all the piston rings and I had to
tear the motor down and fix it. If I had a tachometer I would have known when
I hit
10,000 RPM, but all I had to go by was the engine's refusal to turn any
faster...

>Other than race participants, does anybody look at the tach for any useful
>purpose?

Sure. My sportbikes all have power bands that START around 8000 RPM and go to
11000+ RPM. Then the rev limiter kicks in and prevents engine damage by
shutting off two spark plugs.

The first time I ever rode a bike with a rev limiter, I thought that I had
floated the valves at 11000 RPM. But the owner said that I hadn't hurt it,
the staggering of the engine during rev limiter operation was quite normal.

High performance modern sport bikes take some getting used to. There is no
kick in the pants until you reach the beginning of the power band. Then the
engine accelerates to the rev limit so fast there is no way a human could
roll off the throttle fast enough to avoid wrecking the engine from excess
RPM.

Honda's 500cc oval piston GP racer started making good power at 10,000 RPM
and revved all the way to 20,000 RPM. The rider watched to tachometer to be
sure he didn't drop out of the power band, necessitating a downshift.

The 500cc oval piston racer didn't do that well, but Honda make a 750cc
version for the street. It started making good power at 8000 RPM and
continued to 14,000 RPM.

Later model sportbikes will rev up to 15000 RPM or higher. Yamaha's YZF R6
has a power peak at about 13,000 RPM, but safely revs up to 16,000 RPM so the
rider doesn't have to upshift and downshift in a turn, he can stay in the
same gear all the way around the turn.
Ivan Vegvary - 24 Jun 2007 01:42 GMT
>>Don't want to start a war here.  But, how useful is a tachometer to the
>>average rider.  Notice I said average.
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> rider doesn't have to upshift and downshift in a turn, he can stay in the
> same gear all the way around the turn.

I had not considered most all of the things you mentioned above.  My main
experience has been on my 1964 BMW R69S.  I've never had it above 80 mph
and, usually, I'm in 4th gear by the time I get to 30 mph.  Yes, I can also
reach 30 in 1st gear but have never needed the acceleration.  I obviously
ride like a wimp.  Anyway, you have given me some good points to think
about, and I guess there are many riders who are much more demanding of
their machines.

Thanks for your ideas,

Ivan Vegvary
The Older Gentleman - 24 Jun 2007 07:57 GMT
> BMW R69S

Ooh! Always wanted to ride one of those.

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novascroller - 23 Jun 2007 19:47 GMT
i find a tach useful for troubleshooting carb issues.  

>>I miss not having a tach on a bike, is there an aftermarket company
>> that makes a tach that would fit on my '84 cm450e?  thanks.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Ivan Vegvary
Rob Kleinschmidt - 25 Jun 2007 20:23 GMT
> i find a tach useful for troubleshooting carb issues.

You can hook almost any electronic tach to a coil primary
negative and get some kind of reasonable results.

My twin makes one spark per revolution. For tuning, I
usually use an ancient Sears engine analyzer set on
"four cylinder, narrow band". On this setting, it reads half
the real RPM speed, which still makes it way more
accurate in narrow band mode than a handlebar tach
would be. This unit cost all of $15 on eBay and hooks
into a permanant connection I wired for it off the
spark coil.

For normal riding, I run a Drag Specialties knockoff
made for HD "dual fire" ignitions. Just figure out how
many sparks per revolution or revolutions per spark
and you can match up a tach to the engine. They
generally are driven by a pulsed ground from the coil
negative.
 
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