Foot and Mouth back
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Champ - 04 Aug 2007 15:18 GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility), I'll f.cking top myself.
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
ginge - 04 Aug 2007 15:42 GMT > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm > > If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility), > I'll f.cking top myself. Bet you don't.
Champ - 04 Aug 2007 17:27 GMT >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm >> >> If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility), >> I'll f.cking top myself. > >Bet you don't. You're right.
But I'll be in such a foul mood, you'll wish I had.
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
Andy Bonwick - 04 Aug 2007 17:52 GMT >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >But I'll be in such a foul mood, you'll wish I had. You've only got one sensible option (1) open to you if they cancel:
Moto GP at Misano on the 2nd September taking in a couple of days in Rimini on the way. It's about 900 miles from Calais so a comfortable two day ride or a mental one day blast.
(1) After our phone conversation a few minutes ago I know there's another option but your dick'll drop off if you do that.
Champ - 04 Aug 2007 17:57 GMT >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >You've only got one sensible option (1) open to you if they cancel: I'm going drinking.
With you.
I may be some time.
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
darsy - 06 Aug 2007 09:14 GMT > Moto GP at Misano on the 2nd September taking in a couple of days in > Rimini on the way. It's about 900 miles from Calais so a comfortable > two day ride or a mental one day blast. Rimini's great, actually.
-- d.
Andy Bonwick - 04 Aug 2007 15:43 GMT >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm > >If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility), >I'll f.cking top myself. FFS.
I hope they get it isolated and any infected animals culled before it spreads.
Mike Barnard - 04 Aug 2007 16:57 GMT >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I hope they get it isolated and any infected animals culled before it >spreads. We was discussing this earlier. A few days ago ther was a TV program where the cattle markets were in threat of closing, all the dairy farmers were on their knees and beef as we know it was history. Then suddenly a beef farmer somewhere doesn't have to look after his herd any more and probably gets more money in compo than the herd was worth.
Me, a cynic? Anyway, not being in the farming community I'm sure there's loads of reasons why a desperate farmer wouldn't go (or send someone) abroad, get a cloth rubbed over an infected cows blister and bring it back. Oh no.
And to the genuine, desperate farmers who wouldn't stoop to this, no insult intended. It just seemed a bit of a coincidence.
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 04 Aug 2007 22:25 GMT Mike Barnard <m.barnard.trousers@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message <g689b39ov9bg93gp79nsk02puna8oh2qfd@4ax.com>:
>We was discussing this earlier. A few days ago ther was a TV program >where the cattle markets were in threat of closing, all the dairy [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >And to the genuine, desperate farmers who wouldn't stoop to this, no >insult intended. It just seemed a bit of a coincidence. Not quite sure how to put this.
Go f.ck yourself you ignorant c.nt.
How's that.
 Signature K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.
I know I aint doing much, doing nothing means a lot to me.
Hog - 04 Aug 2007 22:31 GMT > Mike Barnard <m.barnard.trousers@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message > <g689b39ov9bg93gp79nsk02puna8oh2qfd@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > How's that. Are you from a farming background?
I know MB is a decent bloke so it was a rather <cough> strange post.
 Signature Hog '03 ST4S '96 Bastard12 '89 R100RS '81 XS650 '78 RD400
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 04 Aug 2007 22:34 GMT "Hog" <hogSPAM@freenetCHIPS.co.uk> wrote in message <f92r8a$c5s$1@registered.motzarella.org>:
>> Mike Barnard <m.barnard.trousers@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message >> <g689b39ov9bg93gp79nsk02puna8oh2qfd@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Are you from a farming background? Well, duh. Yes.
From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm incomes.
Can't be arsed to argue it at the moment but posts like the one above are sheer, crass stupidity.
>I know MB is a decent bloke so it was a rather <cough> strange post. He's a c.nt. f.ck him.
 Signature K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.
I know I aint doing much, doing nothing means a lot to me.
Hog - 04 Aug 2007 22:43 GMT > He's a c.nt. f.ck him. Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the conspiracy theorists. Someone is in for the high jump.
 Signature Hog '03 ST4S '96 Bastard12 '89 R100RS '81 XS650 '78 RD400
steve auvache - 04 Aug 2007 22:50 GMT >> He's a c.nt. f.ck him. > >Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the >conspiracy theorists. Don't deny the conspiracy side of things, who knows it is not a deliberate attempt by Brownian Motioneers to up his ratings?
>Someone is in for the high jump. Nah, it'll all be covered by insurance, the only ones to pay will be the rest of us. And some poor c.nt who They decide will be the scapegoat.
 Signature steve auvache A Bloo one with built in safety features
Andy Bonwick - 05 Aug 2007 08:28 GMT >> He's a c.nt. f.ck him. > >Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the >conspiracy theorists. Someone is in for the high jump. All it means is that not all the family work on the farm.
Hog - 05 Aug 2007 08:32 GMT >>> He's a c.nt. f.ck him. >> >> Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the >> conspiracy theorists. Someone is in for the high jump. > > All it means is that not all the family work on the farm. Ah yes could well be!
I wonder what other wonderful infections the lab harbours.
 Signature Hog
Champ - 05 Aug 2007 23:15 GMT >From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped >themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm >incomes. I know you often trot this out.
But, surely farming is not unique when it comes to people topping themselves because their businesses have failed?
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
Wicked Uncle Nigel - 05 Aug 2007 23:18 GMT Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> typed
>>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped >>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >But, surely farming is not unique when it comes to people topping >themselves because their businesses have failed? Well quite. There are buggy-whip manufacturers and purveyors of gas mantles for a start.
 Signature Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"
WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41 SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner", Honda GL1000K2 (Fallen apart) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big" Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Honda ST1100 wiv trailer Norton 850 Commando Kawasaki GTR1400
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 05 Aug 2007 23:31 GMT Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in message <qvicb3du8sr2qs4t103n3741cbe4nbpevk@4ax.com>:
>>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped >>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >But, surely farming is not unique when it comes to people topping >themselves because their businesses have failed? No, not unique.
But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list. Mind you this was a memory from about 10-15 years ago (height of BSE.)
A 5 minute google suggests that this is the case though, but I can't be arsed to wade through it. http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/reshighrisk.html
 Signature K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.
"We created it, let's take it over"
Wicked Uncle Nigel - 05 Aug 2007 23:33 GMT Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed
> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in message ><qvicb3du8sr2qs4t103n3741cbe4nbpevk@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >But IIRC after Doctors Easy access to drugs.
>, Farmers were at the top of the list. Easy access to twelve-bores.
 Signature Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"
WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41 SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner", Honda GL1000K2 (Fallen apart) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big" Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Honda ST1100 wiv trailer Norton 850 Commando Kawasaki GTR1400
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 05 Aug 2007 23:40 GMT Wicked Uncle Nigel <wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote in message <8GMgS30XBltGJAV$@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>:
>Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, >deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Easy access to drugs. 57% use poisoning (of some description) vs 27% of the general population.
>>, Farmers were at the top of the list. > >Easy access to twelve-bores. Well... 40% were by shooting, 30% by hanging, 16% carbon Monoxide, 8% poison, 6% "other".
So, whilst you may have made a reasonable guess at the methods employed, I don't think it follows that availability of a method=cause.
 Signature K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.
"We created it, let's take it over"
Wicked Uncle Nigel - 05 Aug 2007 23:48 GMT Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed
> Wicked Uncle Nigel <wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote in message ><8GMgS30XBltGJAV$@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >So, whilst you may have made a reasonable guess at the methods employed, >I don't think it follows that availability of a method=cause. I don't think I was arguing that availability directly equals cause. But it definitely makes a difference to the outcome.
A stressed-out factory worker "threatening" to take a header off a carpark vs. a lonely farmer eating a Baikal? No contest.
 Signature Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"
WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41 SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner", Honda GL1000K2 (Fallen apart) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big" Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Honda ST1100 wiv trailer Norton 850 Commando Kawasaki GTR1400
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 06 Aug 2007 00:45 GMT Wicked Uncle Nigel <wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote in message <hGUnS913OltGJA2C@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>:
>A stressed-out factory worker "threatening" to take a header off a >carpark vs. a lonely farmer eating a Baikal? No contest. The stressed out factory worker would (most likely) have work mates, this is one of the issues with small farms, as you suggest it's a lonely, solitary existance.
 Signature K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.
"We created it, let's take it over"
Mick Whittingham - 06 Aug 2007 08:39 GMT >Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, >deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>>> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in message >>>><qvicb3du8sr2qs4t103n3741cbe4nbpevk@4ax.com>:
>I don't think I was arguing that availability directly equals cause. >But it definitely makes a difference to the outcome. > >A stressed-out factory worker "threatening" to take a header off a >carpark vs. a lonely farmer eating a Baikal? No contest. Nothing wrong with a Baikal. After years of good service you can still knock fence posts in with it.
 Signature Mick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 05 Aug 2007 23:35 GMT deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>:
>A 5 minute google suggests that this is the case though, but I can't be >arsed to wade through it. >http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/reshighrisk.html And having read it a little... I came across this gem:
"In the UK there are approximately 5000 suicides per year, and considerably more deaths from suicide than from road traffic accidents."
I'm really very shocked.
Look at all of the efforts the government is seemingly making to make the roads safer places because of risks (and this isn't just speed cameras; I think they're sincerely trying to improve things in a misguided way)... and then contrast this with their efforts to help the 'mental health' of the nation.
Maybe I'm missing something.
 Signature K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.
"We created it, let's take it over"
Hog - 06 Aug 2007 09:19 GMT > deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message > <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Maybe I'm missing something. Yes so all they need to do is resign and f.ck of somewhere else. Without them everyone will be delerious, ergo no suicide. Govmint will be picked up by a few well meaning volunteers, ex farmers mainly who know how to make things work and get by on a tight budget.
 Signature Hog
Boots - 06 Aug 2007 09:44 GMT >Look at all of the efforts the government is seemingly making to make >the roads safer places because of risks (and this isn't just speed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Maybe I'm missing something. Possibly a hidden social prejudice against mental health problems. Whereas attacking speeding will save the children.
 Signature Ian
Dan White - 06 Aug 2007 10:08 GMT > deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message > <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>: <snip>
> Look at all of the efforts the government is seemingly making to make > the roads safer places because of risks (and this isn't just speed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Maybe I'm missing something. See: http://www.mindingyourhead.info/
For a much more enlightened Government approach in Northern Ireland of all places.
 Signature Dan White (dan@finex666.org.uk) Perform an exorcism when replying.
Pete M - 06 Aug 2007 11:56 GMT Accompanied by the sound of a chisel on slate deadmail@burnt.org.uk,<deadmail@burnt.org.uk> managed to produce the following words of wisdom
> deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message > <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Maybe I'm missing something. The opportunity for Suicide Gatso Cameras on bridges?
I'm sure the Gubbermint, combined with the Safety Nazis can find a way of taxing suicides.
 Signature Pete M - That Scouse Git
W&P Range Rover V8 Turbo Golf GTi 2.0 (Mk2 - proper one) Golf GTi Mk1 (For Sale)
Pip - 06 Aug 2007 12:01 GMT >I'm sure the Gubbermint, combined with the Safety Nazis can find a way of >taxing suicides. Only failed ones.
The only crime they can't do you for if you succeed.
 Signature Pip: B12
Champ - 06 Aug 2007 09:31 GMT >>>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped >>>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list. It's accepted fact that "access to method" is a key determinant in suicides. That's why medics (inv vets) and farmers usually top the lists. It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.
 Signature Champ I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk
sweller - 06 Aug 2007 09:36 GMT > > But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list. > > It's accepted fact that "access to method" is a key determinant in > suicides. That's why medics (inv vets) and farmers usually top the > lists. It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs. ..by that reckoning suburban commuters should be top of the list.
 Signature Simon
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 09:54 GMT >>But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list. > >It's accepted fact that "access to method" is a key determinant in >suicides. That's why medics (inv vets) and farmers usually top the >lists. This is probably true.
> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs. But this is not really the case. In the UK you'll rarely find any OTC drugs in large packages. Boots do sell painkillers, including paracetamol, in bottles of 100, but they're marked 'P' which means it needs the pharmacist to approve them and occasionally gets moronic assistants asking stupid questions about why you want so many, if you ask for two or three bottles.
Thankfully the US is quite happy to sell bottles of 750 in ordinary supermarkets.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Champ - 06 Aug 2007 10:10 GMT >>>But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >But this is not really the case. In the UK you'll rarely find any OTC >drugs in large packages. It certainly is the case. The over-the-counter pack size of paracetemol was halved recently in the UK for precisely this reason.
 Signature Champ I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 11:07 GMT >>> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It certainly is the case. The over-the-counter pack size of >paracetemol was halved recently in the UK for precisely this reason. <googles>
Oh, seems you're right: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=23084
"In the UK, since 1998, pharmacies have not been permitted to sell packs of paracetamol containing more than 32 tablet, and other shops cannot sell packs with more than 16 tablets. "
I'm out-of-date. Again.
But interestingly it seems that it may have been based on a flawed assumption:
"When comparing the trends for paracetamol deaths with other poisoning or suicide deaths, the researchers did not find any statistical evidence that the fall in paracetamol deaths was any different to the overall decline in poisoning or suicide death rates in England and Wales. "
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Mick Whittingham - 06 Aug 2007 13:36 GMT >>>> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >packs of paracetamol containing more than 32 tablet, and other shops >cannot sell packs with more than 16 tablets. " Go to the Cash and Carry. Get a tray (or two) of 48 packs of 16. No problem.
 Signature Mick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
platypus - 06 Aug 2007 10:36 GMT >>> But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > assistants asking stupid questions about why you want so many, if you > ask for two or three bottles. In places like Tesco, the POS kit won't allow you to purchase more than 2 packets of paracetamol in a single transaction.
> Thankfully the US is quite happy to sell bottles of 750 in ordinary > supermarkets. Probably because they have ready access to many more immediate methods of suicide. In the US, the gun is a hugely more popular method than any other, compared with the UK where it's mostly hanging and poisoning.
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ20suicide.pdf
 Signature platypus
somewhere to go for the night
AndrewR - 06 Aug 2007 10:46 GMT >>> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs. >> >> But this is not really the case. In the UK you'll rarely find any OTC >> drugs in large packages.
> In places like Tesco, the POS kit won't allow you to purchase more > than 2 packets of paracetamol in a single transaction. The law was changed a couple of years ago to prohibiting over the counter sales of large quantities of paracetamol.
I was listening to a R4 programme about it a while ago and, apparently, it's had a *huge* impact on the number of paracetamol ODs. Obviously it's easy to get around by buying from multiple shops or over a period of time, but people aren't doing that.
Which is nice, because it tends to be a very slow, painful and expensive[1] way to die. It's apparently common to survive the initial OD, but then to have to take up an ICU bed for a couple of weeks while your organs shut down one-by-one.
[1] For the rest of us, obviously.
 Signature AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas) Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Aprilia RSV-1000R (11th August), Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL) BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR# The speccy Geordie twat.
Cab - 06 Aug 2007 11:27 GMT > > It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > assistants asking stupid questions about why you want so many, if you > ask for two or three bottles. Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap pain-killers in Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy prices. Every time I'm in the UK, I try to pick up a few packs of Nurofen, Paracetomol, etc.
Unless you get the doctor to prescribe them. Mind you, I'm not sure if they're reimbursed by the Secu, now I come to think of it.
Don't you get a staff discount?
 Signature Cab :^) - I'm dyslex-spic apparently GSX 1400 - Speedy Zimmerframe. UKRMMA#10 (KOTL), IbW#015, BoB#4, POTM#3, SKA#1 email addy : ukrm_dot_cab_at_rosbif_dot_org UKRM Firefox Extension: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/ukrm.xpi The gingeometer: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/gingeometer/
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 11:39 GMT >Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap pain-killers in >Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy prices. Err, I suggest that you compare OTC prices. IME they're much cheaper in France than the UK. Actually, I'm really thinking more about proper-ish drugs than standard painkillers.
>Every time I'm >in the UK, I try to pick up a few packs of Nurofen, Paracetomol, etc. If you can find the cheap supermarket generics then yes, I used to do the same.
>Unless you get the doctor to prescribe them. Mind you, I'm not sure if >they're reimbursed by the Secu, now I come to think of it. I don't have personal experience[1] but I believe they would be if prescribed, yes.
>Don't you get a staff discount? Heh. We do have a staff shop, but sadly it doesn't sell proper drugs.
[1] All my recent drugs are Swiss, paid for directly by the company's accident insurance.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Cab - 06 Aug 2007 12:15 GMT > > Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap > > pain-killers in Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in France than the UK. Actually, I'm really thinking more about > proper-ish drugs than standard painkillers. Oh, I'll have to have a check. I've not really looked, tbh.
Mind you, one of the things that's (recently?) come in, in France concerns generic v branded drugs. If people want the branded stuff, apparently they have to pay the difference between the generic/branded prices.
BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go again) do some generic drugs have different effects compared to the original products?
 Signature Cab :^) - I'm dyslex-spic apparently GSX 1400 - Speedy Zimmerframe. UKRMMA#10 (KOTL), IbW#015, BoB#4, POTM#3, SKA#1 email addy : ukrm_dot_cab_at_rosbif_dot_org UKRM Firefox Extension: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/ukrm.xpi The gingeometer: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/gingeometer/
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 12:38 GMT >> > Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap >> > pain-killers in Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Oh, I'll have to have a check. I've not really looked, tbh. I'm basing it on things like SudaFed, which is about a fiver in the UK and about three euros over here for the same size pack.
>Mind you, one of the things that's (recently?) come in, in France >concerns generic v branded drugs. If people want the branded stuff, >apparently they have to pay the difference between the generic/branded >prices. Quite right too.
>BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go again) do >some generic drugs have different effects compared to the original >products? No. If the branded product says it's 200mg ibuprofen (for example) and the generic one is the same, then they'll be equally as effective.
In very rare cases a branded drug may have a different coating which affects its absorbtion/tolerance, but if so the generics wouldn't normally be considered an acceptable alternative, hence the branded one would be reimbursable under the French system.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Cab - 06 Aug 2007 12:47 GMT > > BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go > > again) do some generic drugs have different effects compared to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > normally be considered an acceptable alternative, hence the branded > one would be reimbursable under the French system. So different chemicals wouldn't be used in the composition of generic drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours think that this is the case, but I'm not sure.
 Signature Cab :^) - I'm dyslex-spic apparently GSX 1400 - Speedy Zimmerframe. UKRMMA#10 (KOTL), IbW#015, BoB#4, POTM#3, SKA#1 email addy : ukrm_dot_cab_at_rosbif_dot_org UKRM Firefox Extension: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/ukrm.xpi The gingeometer: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/gingeometer/
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 13:20 GMT >> > BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go >> > again) do some generic drugs have different effects compared to the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours think that this >is the case, but I'm not sure. Assuming we're just talking about the active ingredients here, rather than the rest of the stuff that goes into forming it into a tablet, then no, there won't be any difference. One man's ibuprofen is chemically identical to another's.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Cab - 06 Aug 2007 13:39 GMT > > So different chemicals wouldn't be used in the composition of > > generic drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > chemically identical to another's. > Ta. That's what I thought.
 Signature Cab :^) - I'm dyslex-spic apparently GSX 1400 - Speedy Zimmerframe. UKRMMA#10 (KOTL), IbW#015, BoB#4, POTM#3, SKA#1 email addy : ukrm_dot_cab_at_rosbif_dot_org UKRM Firefox Extension: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/ukrm.xpi The gingeometer: http://www.rosbif.org/ukrm/gingeometer/
Badger - 06 Aug 2007 14:21 GMT >>> In very rare cases a branded drug may have a different coating which >>> affects its absorbtion/tolerance, but if so the generics wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > then no, there won't be any difference. One man's ibuprofen is > chemically identical to another's. So what about this other "stuff" that makes up the tablet? And the coating? What sorts of differences can they make to the effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly the same drug?
 Signature Rick NT650V (still) TWA#11 BREast#6 BOTAFOT#139
jal - 06 Aug 2007 15:08 GMT > So what about this other "stuff" that makes up the tablet? ... It's peas isn't it? On holiday in Norfolk once we saw this vast field of peas which had obviously gone way past any date acceptable to Mr Birdseye, but one of the locals said "Oh they use 'em for making pills."
And re:
Mick Whittingham's tale of waiting for aspirin in Boots: well round here (North East) they used to be "really strict" as you describe, although I've found recently they seem to have backed off (perhaps as a result of seemingly decent coves like you and me COMPLETELY LOSING IT when some dumbo counter assistant trots out the latest H&S policy -- more likely, fear of being sued by survivors of a suicide, AS IF) ... anyway ... when running low on aspirin I now go into Boots and max out on their 16-tab packs, then pop next door to Superdrug, ditto, and pretty soon I have enough to top myself 3 times over. BTW Superdrug are loads cheaper: very good shop.
John [this thread isn't even F&M now, never mind bloody Bikes]
Mick Whittingham - 06 Aug 2007 18:08 GMT >And re: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >of seemingly decent coves like you and me COMPLETELY LOSING IT when some >dumbo counter assistant trots out the latest H&S policy Boots again. Toping up the medical kit we always take with us when going abroad. Canistan HC is a great cure all for rashes and scratches got while diving.
Two tubes of Canistan HC please.
Where are you going to apply the cream?
I don't know yet.
Why don't you, what condition will it be for?
I don't know yet.
Why do you need two tubes?
In case I run out!
OR
Asking for cures for constipation and the sh*ts at the same time. (Toping up the medical kit again)
OR
Have you any large tubs of KY jelly please or an 'own brand' will do as long as it's water soluble and doesn't rot rubber or neoprene. A big optimistic smile at this point really has them worried and rushing for the pharmacist.
Used for getting into your dry suit................'onest!
 Signature Mick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
Champ - 06 Aug 2007 15:08 GMT >>>> In very rare cases a branded drug may have a different coating which >>>> affects its absorbtion/tolerance, but if so the generics wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly >the same drug? I'm no pharma chemist, but I always thought that the vast majority of a tablet was inactive gunk, which just had to be there in order for it to be big enough to take as a tablet, iyswim.
 Signature Champ I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 15:47 GMT >>> So different chemicals wouldn't be used in the composition of generic >>> drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours think that this [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >So what about this other "stuff" that makes up the tablet? As Champ rightly says, it's all the inactive ingredients which make up a tablet. By and large, however, they're not there to bulk it up, but to form a nice firm whole. Many chemicals won't naturally exist in solid form, and even those that do won't necessarily be resistant to bashing and banging, let alone getting wet in the mouth.
>And the coating? What sorts of differences can they make to the >effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly >the same drug? None to different brands of the same, as I explained to Cab. But different formualtions of the same compound may include, for example, a coating to make a tablet lett likely to dissolve immediately in the stomach, when it will be more effective and/or less irritant in the intestines. Similarly, slow-acting forms of many drugs (I've got some 600mg "Brufen Retard" in front of me as I speak) may be formed into small coated lumps before being packed together into a single tablet. The coating can be varied to produce a more gradually disolving pill, ideal for stomach irritants like this, or to prolong the effect, as with some slow-acting morphine I've got next door.
But as I said, these will be recognised as a different formulation, so any generic version of the original will not be equivalent. This can be used to extend the life of a product - one notable example was Glaxo's Zantac, for gastric ulcers and similar, which was due to go off-patent in the late 1990s. At this point it became legal for anyone to manufacture and sell generic versions of it, which would, of course, dramatically hit sales.
By that time, however, Glaxo had, developed a new coating which both significantly increased its tolerability - an important aspect for stomach problems - and allowed lower doses to be as effective. They were then able to extend the patent life by having the new formulation licensed as a new drug.
Of course, the cynics might like to suggest that they had the coating well in advance but saved it until they needed it. I wouldn't know anythig about that.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
ginge - 06 Aug 2007 15:57 GMT > But as I said, these will be recognised as a different formulation, so > any generic version of the original will not be equivalent. This can [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > were then able to extend the patent life by having the new formulation > licensed as a new drug. The old version did still go generic though didn't it? And, I'd imagine that has still hit sales.
AFAIK generic Ranitidine (Zantac) is pretty much the default thing NHS doctors prescribe for that type of thing these days.
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 18:41 GMT >> But as I said, these will be recognised as a different formulation, so >> any generic version of the original will not be equivalent. This can [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >The old version did still go generic though didn't it? Generic versions of the basic molecule were not stopped by the new coating - they just couldn't use it, whereas the coated version was granted, IIRC, something like ten years additional patent life; admittedly for a much smaller market segment, where the coating was beneficial.
>And, I'd imagine that has still hit sales. Well yes, but it's now largely been superceded anyway. But in any event, it went OTC (as a treatment for heartburn) with 'Zantac 75' in about 1997, and in that market, more so even than with prescription drugs, first-to-market is a massive advantage, usually retaining 25-30% of the market even with multiple generic/competitor drugs.
It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if we're 2nd (or later) to market we may be unable to recoup the development costs.
>AFAIK generic Ranitidine (Zantac) is pretty much the default thing NHS >doctors prescribe for that type of thing these days. It wouldn't surprise me, but the more developed parts of the world have now mainly moved on to a new class of drugs called proton pump inhibitors.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
DR - 06 Aug 2007 19:14 GMT >It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if >we're 2nd (or later) to market we may be unable to recoup the >development costs. Heaven forbid that a pharmaceuticals company might actually make someone's life better without making a profit.
Yes, I know how business works. I don't have to like it.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
Champ - 06 Aug 2007 22:04 GMT >>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Heaven forbid that a pharmaceuticals company might actually make >someone's life better without making a profit. Don't be so naive.
>Yes, I know how business works. I don't have to like it. Just think a tiny bit harder, FFS. If a drug company loses money developing new drugs, repeatedly, it will go out of business. And then who will "make someone's life better"?
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
DR - 06 Aug 2007 22:33 GMT >>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >developing new drugs, repeatedly, it will go out of business. And then >who will "make someone's life better"? Oh, I don't care. It's not my world. There will always be someone looking to gain, they'll do it.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
Champ - 06 Aug 2007 22:57 GMT >>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Oh, I don't care. It's not my world. It's not? Whose is it then?
>There will always be someone looking to gain, they'll do it. I'd like to comment on this sentence, but it doesn't seem to say anything.
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
DR - 06 Aug 2007 23:31 GMT >>>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >I'd like to comment on this sentence, but it doesn't seem to say >anything. Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
AndrewR - 06 Aug 2007 23:41 GMT > Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say. That should be carved in stone over the gateway to Usenet.
 Signature AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas) Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Aprilia RSV-1000R (10th August), Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL) BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR# The speccy Geordie twat.
Phil Launchbury - 07 Aug 2007 10:40 GMT >> Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say. > > That should be carved in stone over the gateway to Usenet. Along with "Abandon rationality all you who post here" and "cogito ergo non-post".
Phil.
 Signature Phil Launchbury, IT PHB 'I'm training the bats that live in my cube to juggle mushrooms'
ogden - 07 Aug 2007 11:22 GMT > Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say. Did you ever?
 Signature ogden sv650 - surprisingly quick for a girl's bike
DR - 07 Aug 2007 18:23 GMT >> Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say. > >Did you ever? Say anything? Yes.
I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt. I realise I have little control over this, however.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
ogden - 07 Aug 2007 19:47 GMT > I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt. I, naturally, have no such qualms.
 Signature ogden sv650 - surprisingly quick for a girl's bike
Bear - 07 Aug 2007 19:55 GMT > > I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt. > > I, naturally, have no such qualms. And the UKRM "Stating The Bleedin Obvious" award of 2007 goes to ...
 Signature Bear
DR - 07 Aug 2007 21:14 GMT >> I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt. > >I, naturally, have no such qualms. You may be assured that I am very much aware of that.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
ginge - 06 Aug 2007 23:17 GMT > >>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we > >>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > developing new drugs, repeatedly, it will go out of business. And then > who will "make someone's life better"? Hmm, I'm having a 2 threads converge moment here...
It's uncanny just how similar the development costs of the pharmaceutical industry are to the way something like the movie industry works. And how drug licensing is a lot like DRM..
I think at this point I'm going to stop making comparisons, I'm not sure I'd be entirely comfortable with the idea of being able to buy baked to order generic unlicenced tablets, over the web, from Russians.
raden - 06 Aug 2007 22:23 GMT >>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Yes, I know how business works. I don't have to like it. I bet you'll be happy to know, then, that the gubmint is going to buy thousands of F&M vaccinations from the Pirbright centre where they think the outbreak originated
 Signature geoff
DR - 06 Aug 2007 22:35 GMT >>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >thousands of F&M vaccinations from the Pirbright centre where they think >the outbreak originated It would be easy to be cynical; I'd go for Hanlon's Razor in this case. If it's proven that Pirbright is responsible, then emergency powers should be used to take what's needed from them.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
Phil Launchbury - 07 Aug 2007 10:38 GMT >>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Heaven forbid that a pharmaceuticals company might actually make > someone's life better without making a profit. And then how would they pay for the development of new drugs? It isn't exactly cheap. Not that I'm saying big pharma isn't clean - far from it - like any big shareholding company they care only about increasing the size of their profit margin. But it is *staggeringly* expensive developing new drugs - something like 1 in 10000 of new compounds end up actually coming to market - and a substantial number of those get very close (and have a lot of money spent on development and testing) before being finally discarded.
> Yes, I know how business works. I don't have to like it. Fine - set yourself up in business to do it 'ethically'. See how long you last without a budget or money.
Phil.
 Signature Phil Launchbury, IT PHB 'I'm training the bats that live in my cube to juggle mushrooms'
DR - 07 Aug 2007 18:20 GMT >>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we >>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Fine - set yourself up in business to do it 'ethically'. See how long >you last without a budget or money. I've long since abandoned any pretence towards ethics. Like I say, I've given the matter a small amount of further consideration, and withdraw my objections.
 Signature Darren GSF1200N K3
dog - 06 Aug 2007 16:19 GMT > ... (I've got some > 600mg "Brufen Retard" in front of me as I speak) ... that's a great sounding name.
 Signature dog sl1000 two#5 "nobody except the poor, who can't afford the pills..."
Badger - 06 Aug 2007 16:43 GMT > By that time, however, Glaxo had, developed a new coating which both > significantly increased its tolerability - an important aspect for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > well in advance but saved it until they needed it. I wouldn't know > anythig about that. Heh!
 Signature Rick NT650V (still) TWA#11 BREast#6 BOTAFOT#139
Grimly Curmudgeon - 06 Aug 2007 17:18 GMT We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying something like:
>>And the coating? What sorts of differences can they make to the >>effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >stomach, when it will be more effective and/or less irritant in the >intestines. It is a fact, subjective though it may be, that some generics have different side-effects to the originals. Whether this is due to coatings or a variation of the basic active formulation isn't important - what is important is that if one is taking a branded drug and then shunted onto a generic with unpleasant side-effects the difference is noticeable. Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.
 Signature Dave GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
Teach a man to fish and he and his pikey mates will have the river cleaned out in a day.
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 18:46 GMT >We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >It is a fact, subjective though it may be, How can it be both subjective and a fact?
>that some generics have different side-effects to the originals. Can you find a reference for this? I've never heard that this is the case.
>Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable. Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder, but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Grimly Curmudgeon - 06 Aug 2007 22:33 GMT We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying something like:
>>It is a fact, subjective though it may be, > >How can it be both subjective and a fact? Personally speaking, it is a fact.
>>that some generics have different side-effects to the originals. > >Can you find a reference for this? I've never heard that this is the >case. Ask around, you'll find thousands of people who know it to be true. Not everything can be measured.
>>Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable. > >Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder, >but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up. As I say, it happens, beyond all doubt. Most of the time the side-effects aren't life-threatening, just irritating.
 Signature Dave GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
Teach a man to fish and he and his pikey mates will have the river cleaned out in a day.
Champ - 06 Aug 2007 22:58 GMT >Not everything can be measured. In the case of drug manufacturer, how would you expect a pharma company to respond to an effect that "can't be measured"?
 Signature Champ
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work.
Grimly Curmudgeon - 06 Aug 2007 23:37 GMT We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> saying something like:
>>Not everything can be measured. > >In the case of drug manufacturer, how would you expect a pharma >company to respond to an effect that "can't be measured"? I don't, in this example. The generics aren't unsafe, and most people who take them wouldn't notice a difference anyway. It's just that some (in total, a lot of) people find there is a difference - either in efficacy or one or two minor side-effects that didn't show up with the branded med.
You should read a pharma listing - there's an amazing amount of side-effects listed for just about every drug under the sun, so it's hardly surprising that a slight difference in the formulation or coating or etc will affect some consumers.
 Signature Dave GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
Teach a man to fish and he and his pikey mates will have the river cleaned out in a day.
Champ - 07 Aug 2007 09:20 GMT >We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> saying [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >efficacy or one or two minor side-effects that didn't show up with the >branded med. If there's a real difference, it can be measured. If it can't be measured, there's no difference.
You choose.
Anyway, sounds like placebo effect (which, of course, *can* be measured) is the most likely explanation to me.
 Signature Champ I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk
Ace - 07 Aug 2007 09:27 GMT >Anyway, sounds like placebo effect (which, of course, *can* be >measured) is the most likely explanation to me. Much moer likely that some other external factor was at work. There are just so many things that affect the way drugs work, which is why such small samples must be regarded as unproven, of course.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Phil Launchbury - 07 Aug 2007 10:32 GMT > You should read a pharma listing - there's an amazing amount of > side-effects listed for just about every drug under the sun, so it's You do know how clinical trials are conducted don't you? The drugs are given out to the volunteers and *any* symptom displayed by the volunteers is logged. If more than a set proportion of the volunteers display the symptom then it is assumed to be caused by the drug - even if it isn't. And anything that is logged like that has to be mentioned on the drug literature as possible side effects.
So you get the absurd situation where my migraine medication (topiramate) has the side effect of 'causes headaches'.. when in fact what it does is vastly *reduce* the incidence of them. But because the volunteers recorded the fact that they had headaches after taking the drugs it is recorded as a side effect.
> hardly surprising that a slight difference in the formulation or coating > or etc will affect some consumers. There will be no variation in formulation of the active compound - otherwise it won't be the same drug. Any variation in the coating would have to have the same pharmacokinetic properties as the original unless they specifically want it to have other properties - again it forms part of the generics license.
There may be synergy effects with variations on the filler compound of the tablets but I suspect they would be dwarfed by the placebo effect.
Phil.
 Signature Phil Launchbury, IT PHB 'I'm training the bats that live in my cube to juggle mushrooms'
Ace - 07 Aug 2007 07:39 GMT >We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Personally speaking, it is a fact. But subject to what?
>>>that some generics have different side-effects to the originals. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Ask around, you'll find thousands of people who know it to be true. Not >everything can be measured. Rubbish. We have thousands people in our company alone whose entire working lives are dedicated to identifying adverse drug reactions. If one drug, or formulation, behaves differently from another one, that difference can be meaasured.
>>>Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable. >> >>Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder, >>but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up. > >As I say, it happens, beyond all doubt. _You_ may have no doubt, and there are many others of a like mind, I'm sure, but if you don't have even a shred of empirical evidence how can you possibly expect anyone, either here or in the industry, to take such claims seriously?
Note that I'm not claiming that you're wrong, but just trying to take a vaguely scientific approach of looking for evidence to support an hypothesis. I'd be more than happy to see such evidence.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Bear - 06 Aug 2007 23:29 GMT > >that some generics have different side-effects to the originals. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder, > but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up. We've done this before. You never believe it, but those of us who use said products know *precisely* what we mean.
Eh Pip?
 Signature Bear
Ace - 07 Aug 2007 07:47 GMT >> >Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >We've done this before. You never believe it, but those of us who use >said products know *precisely* what we mean. It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem to backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it had no nasty effects, but when I took brand Y it caused symptom Z".
I'm not suggesting for a second that such claims are anything other than genuine, but the extrapolation into statements such as Grimply's "It's a fact that some generics have different side-effects to the originals" are spurious at best, and potentially misleading if taken at face value, unless there is properly-gathered evidence to support them.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Bear - 07 Aug 2007 18:06 GMT > >> >Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable. > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > at face value, unless there is properly-gathered evidence to support > them. The reasonableness of your reply indicates *your* medications are working just fine.
 Signature Bear
Ace - 07 Aug 2007 18:22 GMT >> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem to >> backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it had no >> nasty effects, but when I took brand Y it caused symptom Z".
>The reasonableness of your reply indicates *your* medications are >working just fine. Actually I'm not doing at all well at the moment. Was fin up until about 3 weeks after the op, dropping the painkiller dosage considerably and starting to do stuff, including some light weights work and a bit of cycling. That latter (about 4 miles each way, with a superb village restaurant luch + wine in between) may have been the trigger, I don't know, but I started to get severe muscle pains which don't seem to respond to drugs after that which I've been struggling to resolve. Last couple of days I've had a dodgy stomach too and am feeling generally crap.
Had an hour-long T/C earlier where I recognised from my reactions that my mental state's not too good either. Could think straight-ish, but my tolerance for fools is around zero at the moment, which isn't good in my job. I'll be doing at least a couple of hours in the office tomorrow, following a physio appt. so I'll see how well I survive there.
I'm determined to _not_ fall into the trap I did after the accident of going back too early (in that case about six weeks later), taking on stuff which I wasn't mentally able to cope with and failing a couple of (personal) deadlines as a result, mainly due to pain causing tiredness causing intolerance and lack of focus-ability.
Other than that I'm fine.
 Signature _______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) \`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10 `\\ | //' `\|/` `
Bear - 07 Aug 2007 18:26 GMT > >> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem to > >> backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it had no [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > to resolve. Last couple of days I've had a dodgy stomach too and am > feeling generally crap. Strewth :( Sorry to hear that.
It does reinforce my theory that exercise just isn't good for people, though. Have you tried taking up smoking and drinking instead?
> Had an hour-long T/C earlier where I recognised from my reactions that > my mental state's not too good either. Could think straight-ish, but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of (personal) deadlines as a result, mainly due to pain causing > tiredness causing intolerance and lack of focus-ability. I know this sounds a bit off the wall, but what are the side-effects of coming off the painkillers you were on? Were you on opiates?
> Other than that I'm fine. Sounds like a bundle of laughs. GWS.
 Signature Bear
Hog - 07 Aug 2007 18:38 GMT >>>> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem >>>> to backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It does reinforce my theory that exercise just isn't good for people, > though. Have you tried taking up smoking and drinking instead? That got a big laugh! GSOH is essential in these situations.
Is it muscle pain or in the ligaments/tendons I wonder. There would be some quite good herbal remedies for that and in terms of pain control Sir needs some good quality mary jane.
 Signature Hog '03 ST4S '96 Bastard12 '89 R100RS '81 XS650 '78 RD400
Bear - 07 Aug 2007 19:48 GMT > >>>> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem > >>>> to backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > That got a big laugh! > GSOH is essential in these situations. That's prompted a memory of me lying on a specialist's examination table, in the kin
|
|