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Motorcycle Forum / Country Specific / UK Group / August 2007



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Champ - 04 Aug 2007 15:18 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm

If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility),
I'll f.cking top myself.
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Champ

ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

ginge - 04 Aug 2007 15:42 GMT
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
>
> If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility),
> I'll f.cking top myself.

Bet you don't.
Champ - 04 Aug 2007 17:27 GMT
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
>>
>> If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility),
>> I'll f.cking top myself.
>
>Bet you don't.

You're right.

But I'll be in such a foul mood, you'll wish I had.
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Champ

ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

Andy Bonwick - 04 Aug 2007 17:52 GMT
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>But I'll be in such a foul mood, you'll wish I had.

You've only got one sensible option (1) open to you if they cancel:

Moto GP at Misano on the 2nd September taking in a couple of days in
Rimini on the way. It's about 900 miles from Calais so a comfortable
two day ride or a mental one day blast.

(1) After our phone conversation a few minutes ago I know there's
another option but your dick'll drop off if you do that.
Champ - 04 Aug 2007 17:57 GMT
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>You've only got one sensible option (1) open to you if they cancel:

I'm going drinking.

With you.

I may be some time.
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Champ

ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

darsy - 06 Aug 2007 09:14 GMT
> Moto GP at Misano on the 2nd September taking in a couple of days in
> Rimini on the way. It's about 900 miles from Calais so a comfortable
> two day ride or a mental one day blast.

Rimini's great, actually.

--
d.
Andy Bonwick - 04 Aug 2007 15:43 GMT
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
>
>If the f.cking Manx gets cancelled (and it's a definite possibility),
>I'll f.cking top myself.

FFS.

I hope they get it isolated and any infected animals culled before it
spreads.
Mike Barnard - 04 Aug 2007 16:57 GMT
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6931142.stm
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I hope they get it isolated and any infected animals culled before it
>spreads.

We was discussing this earlier.  A few days ago ther was a TV program
where the cattle markets were in threat of closing, all the dairy
farmers were on their knees and beef as we know it was history.  Then
suddenly a beef farmer somewhere doesn't have to look after his herd
any more and probably gets more money in compo than the herd was
worth.

Me, a cynic? Anyway, not being in the farming community I'm sure
there's loads of reasons why a desperate farmer wouldn't go (or send
someone) abroad, get a cloth rubbed over an infected cows blister and
bring it back.  Oh no.

And to the genuine, desperate farmers who wouldn't stoop to this, no
insult intended.  It just seemed a bit of a coincidence.
deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 04 Aug 2007 22:25 GMT
Mike Barnard <m.barnard.trousers@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message
<g689b39ov9bg93gp79nsk02puna8oh2qfd@4ax.com>:

>We was discussing this earlier.  A few days ago ther was a TV program
>where the cattle markets were in threat of closing, all the dairy
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>And to the genuine, desperate farmers who wouldn't stoop to this, no
>insult intended.  It just seemed a bit of a coincidence.

Not quite sure how to put this.

Go f.ck yourself you ignorant c.nt.

How's that.

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Hog - 04 Aug 2007 22:31 GMT
> Mike Barnard <m.barnard.trousers@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message
> <g689b39ov9bg93gp79nsk02puna8oh2qfd@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> How's that.

Are you from a farming background?

I know MB is a decent bloke so it was a rather <cough> strange post.

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Hog
'03 ST4S  '96 Bastard12  '89 R100RS  '81 XS650  '78 RD400

deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 04 Aug 2007 22:34 GMT
"Hog" <hogSPAM@freenetCHIPS.co.uk> wrote in message
<f92r8a$c5s$1@registered.motzarella.org>:

>> Mike Barnard <m.barnard.trousers@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message
>> <g689b39ov9bg93gp79nsk02puna8oh2qfd@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>Are you from a farming background?

Well, duh.  Yes.

From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped
themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm
incomes.

Can't be arsed to argue it at the moment but posts like the one above
are sheer, crass stupidity.

>I know MB is a decent bloke so it was a rather <cough> strange post.

He's a c.nt. f.ck him.
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I know I aint doing much,
doing nothing means a lot to me.

Hog - 04 Aug 2007 22:43 GMT
> He's a c.nt. f.ck him.

Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the
conspiracy theorists. Someone is in for the high jump.

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Hog
'03 ST4S  '96 Bastard12  '89 R100RS  '81 XS650  '78 RD400

steve auvache - 04 Aug 2007 22:50 GMT
>> He's a c.nt. f.ck him.
>
>Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the
>conspiracy theorists.

Don't deny the conspiracy side of things, who knows it is not a
deliberate attempt by Brownian Motioneers to up his ratings?

>Someone is in for the high jump.

Nah, it'll all be covered by insurance, the only ones to pay will be the
rest of us.  And some poor c.nt who They decide will be the scapegoat.

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steve auvache
A Bloo one with built in safety features

Andy Bonwick - 05 Aug 2007 08:28 GMT
>> He's a c.nt. f.ck him.
>
>Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the
>conspiracy theorists. Someone is in for the high jump.

All it means is that not all the family work on the farm.
Hog - 05 Aug 2007 08:32 GMT
>>> He's a c.nt. f.ck him.
>>
>> Looks like the source of the infection is even more weird than the
>> conspiracy theorists. Someone is in for the high jump.
>
> All it means is that not all the family work on the farm.

Ah yes could well be!

I wonder what other wonderful infections the lab harbours.

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Hog

Champ - 05 Aug 2007 23:15 GMT
>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped
>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm
>incomes.

I know you often trot this out.

But, surely farming is not unique when it comes to people topping
themselves because their businesses have failed?
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Champ

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Wicked Uncle Nigel - 05 Aug 2007 23:18 GMT
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Champ
<neal@champ.org.uk> typed

>>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped
>>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>But, surely farming is not unique when it comes to people topping
>themselves because their businesses have failed?

Well quite. There are buggy-whip manufacturers and purveyors of gas
mantles for a start.

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deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 05 Aug 2007 23:31 GMT
Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
<qvicb3du8sr2qs4t103n3741cbe4nbpevk@4ax.com>:

>>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped
>>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>But, surely farming is not unique when it comes to people topping
>themselves because their businesses have failed?

No, not unique.

But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list.  Mind you
this was a memory from about 10-15 years ago (height of BSE.)

A 5 minute google suggests that this is the case though, but I can't be
arsed to wade through it.
http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/reshighrisk.html
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"We created it, let's take it over"

Wicked Uncle Nigel - 05 Aug 2007 23:33 GMT
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed
> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
><qvicb3du8sr2qs4t103n3741cbe4nbpevk@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>But IIRC after Doctors

Easy access to drugs.

>, Farmers were at the top of the list.

Easy access to twelve-bores.

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deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 05 Aug 2007 23:40 GMT
Wicked Uncle Nigel <wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote in message
<8GMgS30XBltGJAV$@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>:

>Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
>deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Easy access to drugs.

57% use poisoning (of some description) vs 27% of the general
population.

>>, Farmers were at the top of the list.
>
>Easy access to twelve-bores.

Well... 40% were by shooting, 30% by hanging, 16% carbon Monoxide, 8%
poison, 6% "other".

So, whilst you may have made a reasonable guess at the methods employed,
I don't think it follows that availability of a method=cause.
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"We created it, let's take it over"

Wicked Uncle Nigel - 05 Aug 2007 23:48 GMT
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed
> Wicked Uncle Nigel <wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote in message
><8GMgS30XBltGJAV$@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>So, whilst you may have made a reasonable guess at the methods employed,
>I don't think it follows that availability of a method=cause.

I don't think I was arguing that availability directly equals cause. But
it definitely makes a difference to the outcome.

A stressed-out factory worker "threatening" to take a header off a
carpark vs. a lonely farmer eating a Baikal? No contest.

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deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 06 Aug 2007 00:45 GMT
Wicked Uncle Nigel <wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote in message
<hGUnS913OltGJA2C@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>:

>A stressed-out factory worker "threatening" to take a header off a
>carpark vs. a lonely farmer eating a Baikal? No contest.

The stressed out factory worker would (most likely) have work mates,
this is one of the issues with small farms, as you suggest it's a
lonely, solitary existance.  
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"We created it, let's take it over"

Mick Whittingham - 06 Aug 2007 08:39 GMT
>Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
>deadmail@burnt.org.uk typed
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>>> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>><qvicb3du8sr2qs4t103n3741cbe4nbpevk@4ax.com>:

>I don't think I was arguing that availability directly equals cause.
>But it definitely makes a difference to the outcome.
>
>A stressed-out factory worker "threatening" to take a header off a
>carpark vs. a lonely farmer eating a Baikal? No contest.

Nothing wrong with a Baikal. After years of good service you can still
knock fence posts in with it.
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Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
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deadmail@burnt.org.uk - 05 Aug 2007 23:35 GMT
deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message
<kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>:

>A 5 minute google suggests that this is the case though, but I can't be
>arsed to wade through it.
>http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/reshighrisk.html

And having read it a little...  I came across this gem:

"In the UK there are approximately 5000 suicides per year, and
considerably more deaths from suicide than from road traffic accidents."

I'm really very shocked.

Look at all of the efforts the government is seemingly making to make
the roads safer places because of risks (and this isn't just speed
cameras; I think they're sincerely trying to improve things in a
misguided way)... and then contrast this with their efforts to help the
'mental health' of the nation.

Maybe I'm missing something.
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K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA.

"We created it, let's take it over"

Hog - 06 Aug 2007 09:19 GMT
> deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message
> <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Maybe I'm missing something.

Yes so all they need to do is resign and f.ck of somewhere else. Without
them everyone will be delerious, ergo no suicide. Govmint will be picked up
by a few well meaning volunteers, ex farmers mainly who know how to make
things work and get by on a tight budget.

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Hog

Boots - 06 Aug 2007 09:44 GMT
>Look at all of the efforts the government is seemingly making to make
>the roads safer places because of risks (and this isn't just speed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Maybe I'm missing something.

Possibly a hidden social prejudice against mental health problems.
Whereas attacking speeding will save the children.

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Ian

Dan White - 06 Aug 2007 10:08 GMT
> deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message
> <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>:
<snip>
> Look at all of the efforts the government is seemingly making to make
> the roads safer places because of risks (and this isn't just speed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Maybe I'm missing something.

See:
http://www.mindingyourhead.info/

For a much more enlightened Government approach in Northern Ireland of all
places.

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Dan White
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Perform an exorcism when replying.

Pete M - 06 Aug 2007 11:56 GMT
Accompanied by the sound of a chisel on slate
deadmail@burnt.org.uk,<deadmail@burnt.org.uk> managed to produce the
following words of wisdom
> deadmail@burnt.org.uk wrote in message
> <kfjcb3po0760qoks01dll8l94rmu0ftquq@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Maybe I'm missing something.

The opportunity for Suicide Gatso Cameras on bridges?

I'm sure the Gubbermint, combined with the Safety Nazis can find a way of
taxing suicides.

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Pete M - That Scouse Git

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Pip - 06 Aug 2007 12:01 GMT
>I'm sure the Gubbermint, combined with the Safety Nazis can find a way of
>taxing suicides.

Only failed ones.

The only crime they can't do you for if you succeed.

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Pip: B12

Champ - 06 Aug 2007 09:31 GMT
>>>From a farming background and know two farmers who have topped
>>>themselves due to money problems brought on by the collapse in farm
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list.  

It's accepted fact that "access to method" is a key determinant in
suicides.  That's why medics (inv vets) and farmers usually top the
lists.  It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.
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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
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sweller - 06 Aug 2007 09:36 GMT
> > But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list.  
>
> It's accepted fact that "access to method" is a key determinant in
> suicides.  That's why medics (inv vets) and farmers usually top the
> lists.  It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.

..by that reckoning suburban commuters should be top of the list.

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Simon

Ace - 06 Aug 2007 09:54 GMT
>>But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list.  
>
>It's accepted fact that "access to method" is a key determinant in
>suicides.  That's why medics (inv vets) and farmers usually top the
>lists.

This is probably true.

> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.

But this is not really the case. In the UK you'll rarely find any OTC
drugs in large packages. Boots do sell painkillers, including
paracetamol, in bottles of 100, but they're marked 'P' which means it
needs the pharmacist to approve them and occasionally gets moronic
assistants asking stupid questions about why you want so many, if you
ask for two or three bottles.

Thankfully the US is quite happy to sell bottles of 750 in ordinary
supermarkets.

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Champ - 06 Aug 2007 10:10 GMT
>>>But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list.  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>But this is not really the case. In the UK you'll rarely find any OTC
>drugs in large packages.

It certainly is the case.  The over-the-counter pack size of
paracetemol was halved recently in the UK for precisely this reason.

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Ace - 06 Aug 2007 11:07 GMT
>>> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It certainly is the case.  The over-the-counter pack size of
>paracetemol was halved recently in the UK for precisely this reason.

<googles>

Oh, seems you're right: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=23084 

"In the UK, since 1998, pharmacies have not been permitted to sell
packs of paracetamol containing more than 32 tablet, and other shops
cannot sell packs with more than 16 tablets. "

I'm out-of-date. Again.

But interestingly it seems that it may have been based on a flawed
assumption:

"When comparing the trends for paracetamol deaths with other poisoning
or suicide deaths, the researchers did not find any statistical
evidence that the fall in paracetamol deaths was any different to the
overall decline in poisoning or suicide death rates in England and
Wales. "
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Mick Whittingham - 06 Aug 2007 13:36 GMT
>>>> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>packs of paracetamol containing more than 32 tablet, and other shops
>cannot sell packs with more than 16 tablets. "

Go to the Cash and Carry.
Get a tray (or two) of 48 packs of 16. No problem.

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Mick Whittingham
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William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

platypus - 06 Aug 2007 10:36 GMT
>>> But IIRC after Doctors, Farmers were at the top of the list.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> assistants asking stupid questions about why you want so many, if you
> ask for two or three bottles.

In places like Tesco, the POS kit won't allow you to purchase more than 2
packets of paracetamol in a single transaction.

> Thankfully the US is quite happy to sell bottles of 750 in ordinary
> supermarkets.

Probably because they have ready access to many more immediate methods of
suicide.  In the US, the gun is a hugely more popular method than any other,
compared with the UK where it's mostly hanging and poisoning.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ20suicide.pdf

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platypus

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AndrewR - 06 Aug 2007 10:46 GMT
>>> It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.
>>
>> But this is not really the case. In the UK you'll rarely find any OTC
>> drugs in large packages.

> In places like Tesco, the POS kit won't allow you to purchase more
> than 2 packets of paracetamol in a single transaction.

The law was changed a couple of years ago to prohibiting over the counter
sales of large quantities of paracetamol.

I was listening to a R4 programme about it a while ago and, apparently, it's
had a *huge* impact on the number of paracetamol ODs.  Obviously it's easy
to get around by buying from multiple shops or over a period of time, but
people aren't doing that.

Which is nice, because it tends to be a very slow, painful and expensive[1]
way to die.  It's apparently common to survive the initial OD, but then to
have to take up an ICU bed for a couple of weeks while your organs shut down
one-by-one.

[1]  For the rest of us, obviously.

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Cab - 06 Aug 2007 11:27 GMT
> > It's also why paracetemol is sold in limited size packs.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> assistants asking stupid questions about why you want so many, if you
> ask for two or three bottles.

Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap pain-killers in
Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy prices. Every time I'm
in the UK, I try to pick up a few packs of Nurofen, Paracetomol, etc.

Unless you get the doctor to prescribe them. Mind you, I'm not sure if
they're reimbursed by the Secu, now I come to think of it.

Don't you get a staff discount?

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Ace - 06 Aug 2007 11:39 GMT
>Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap pain-killers in
>Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy prices.

Err, I suggest that you compare OTC prices. IME they're much cheaper
in France than the UK. Actually, I'm really thinking more about
proper-ish drugs than standard painkillers.

>Every time I'm
>in the UK, I try to pick up a few packs of Nurofen, Paracetomol, etc.

If you can find the cheap supermarket generics then yes, I used to do
the same.

>Unless you get the doctor to prescribe them. Mind you, I'm not sure if
>they're reimbursed by the Secu, now I come to think of it.

I don't have personal experience[1] but I believe they would be if
prescribed, yes.

>Don't you get a staff discount?

Heh. We do have a staff shop, but sadly it doesn't sell proper drugs.

[1] All my recent drugs are Swiss, paid for directly by the company's
accident insurance.

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Cab - 06 Aug 2007 12:15 GMT
> > Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap
> > pain-killers in Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in France than the UK. Actually, I'm really thinking more about
> proper-ish drugs than standard painkillers.

Oh, I'll have to have a check. I've not really looked, tbh.

Mind you, one of the things that's (recently?) come in, in France
concerns generic v branded drugs. If people want the branded stuff,
apparently they have to pay the difference between the generic/branded
prices.

BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go again) do
some generic drugs have different effects compared to the original
products?

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Ace - 06 Aug 2007 12:38 GMT
>> > Which is a right PITA in France, as you can't buy cheap
>> > pain-killers in Supermarkets and have to pay inflated pharmacy
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Oh, I'll have to have a check. I've not really looked, tbh.

I'm basing it on things like SudaFed, which is about a fiver in the UK
and about three euros over here for the same size pack.

>Mind you, one of the things that's (recently?) come in, in France
>concerns generic v branded drugs. If people want the branded stuff,
>apparently they have to pay the difference between the generic/branded
>prices.

Quite right too.

>BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go again) do
>some generic drugs have different effects compared to the original
>products?

No. If the branded product says it's 200mg ibuprofen (for example) and
the generic one is the same, then they'll be equally as effective.

In very rare cases a branded drug may have a different coating which
affects its absorbtion/tolerance, but if so the generics wouldn't
normally be considered an acceptable alternative, hence the branded
one would be reimbursable under the French system.

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Cab - 06 Aug 2007 12:47 GMT
> > BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go
> > again) do some generic drugs have different effects compared to the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> normally be considered an acceptable alternative, hence the branded
> one would be reimbursable under the French system.

So different chemicals wouldn't be used in the composition of generic
drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours think that this
is the case, but I'm not sure.

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Ace - 06 Aug 2007 13:20 GMT
>> > BTW, (I'm sure that this has been asked before but here we go
>> > again) do some generic drugs have different effects compared to the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours think that this
>is the case, but I'm not sure.

Assuming we're just talking about the active ingredients here, rather
than the rest of the stuff that goes into forming it into a tablet,
then no, there won't be any difference. One man's ibuprofen is
chemically identical to another's.

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Cab - 06 Aug 2007 13:39 GMT
> > So different chemicals wouldn't be used in the composition of
> > generic drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> chemically identical to another's.
>  

Ta. That's what I thought.

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Badger - 06 Aug 2007 14:21 GMT
>>> In very rare cases a branded drug may have a different coating which
>>> affects its absorbtion/tolerance, but if so the generics wouldn't
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> then no, there won't be any difference. One man's ibuprofen is
> chemically identical to another's.

So what about this other "stuff" that makes up the tablet?  And the
coating?  What sorts of differences can they make to the
effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly
the same drug?

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jal - 06 Aug 2007 15:08 GMT
> So what about this other "stuff" that makes up the tablet? ...

It's peas isn't it?  On holiday in Norfolk once we saw this vast field
of peas which had obviously gone way past any date acceptable to Mr
Birdseye, but one of the locals said "Oh they use 'em for making pills."

And re:

Mick Whittingham's tale of waiting for aspirin in Boots: well round here
(North East) they used to be "really strict" as you describe, although
I've found recently they seem to have backed off  (perhaps as a result
of seemingly decent coves like you and me COMPLETELY LOSING IT when some
dumbo counter assistant trots out the latest H&S policy -- more likely,
fear of being sued by survivors of a suicide, AS IF) ... anyway ... when
running low on aspirin I now go into Boots and max out on their 16-tab
packs, then pop next door to Superdrug, ditto, and pretty soon I have
enough to top myself 3 times over.  BTW Superdrug are loads cheaper:
very good shop.

John
[this thread isn't even F&M now, never mind bloody Bikes]
Mick Whittingham - 06 Aug 2007 18:08 GMT
>And re:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>of seemingly decent coves like you and me COMPLETELY LOSING IT when some
>dumbo counter assistant trots out the latest H&S policy

Boots again. Toping up the medical kit we always take with us when going
abroad. Canistan HC is a great cure all for rashes and scratches got
while diving.

Two tubes of Canistan HC please.

Where are you going to apply the cream?

I don't know yet.

Why don't you, what condition will it be for?

I don't know yet.

Why do you need two tubes?

In case I run out!

OR

Asking for cures for constipation and the sh*ts at the same time.
(Toping up the medical kit again)

OR

Have you any large tubs of KY jelly please or an 'own brand' will do as
long as it's water soluble and doesn't rot rubber or neoprene. A big
optimistic smile at this point really has them worried and rushing for
the pharmacist.

Used for getting into your dry suit................'onest!

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William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

Champ - 06 Aug 2007 15:08 GMT
>>>> In very rare cases a branded drug may have a different coating which
>>>> affects its absorbtion/tolerance, but if so the generics wouldn't
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly
>the same drug?

I'm no pharma chemist, but I always thought that the vast majority of
a tablet was inactive gunk, which just had to be there in order for it
to be big enough to take as a tablet, iyswim.
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Ace - 06 Aug 2007 15:47 GMT
>>> So different chemicals wouldn't be used in the composition of generic
>>> drugs (apart from coating)? I ask because my neighbours think that this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>So what about this other "stuff" that makes up the tablet?  

As Champ rightly says, it's all the inactive ingredients which make up
a tablet. By and large, however, they're not there to bulk it up, but
to form a nice firm whole. Many chemicals won't naturally exist in
solid form, and even those that do won't necessarily be resistant to
bashing and banging, let alone getting wet in the mouth.

>And the coating?  What sorts of differences can they make to the
>effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly
>the same drug?

None to different brands of the same, as I explained to Cab. But
different formualtions of the same compound may include, for example,
a coating to make a tablet lett likely to dissolve immediately in the
stomach, when it will be more effective and/or less irritant in the
intestines. Similarly, slow-acting forms of many drugs (I've got some
600mg "Brufen Retard" in front of me as I speak) may be formed into
small coated lumps before being packed together into a single tablet.
The coating can be varied to produce a more gradually disolving pill,
ideal for stomach irritants like this, or to prolong the effect, as
with some slow-acting morphine I've got next door.

But as I said, these will be recognised as a different formulation, so
any generic version of the original will not be equivalent. This can
be used to extend the life of a product - one notable example was
Glaxo's Zantac, for gastric ulcers and similar, which was due to go
off-patent in the late 1990s. At this point it became legal for anyone
to manufacture and sell generic versions of it, which would, of
course, dramatically hit sales.

By that time, however, Glaxo had, developed a new coating which both
significantly increased its tolerability - an important aspect for
stomach problems - and allowed lower doses to be as effective. They
were then able to extend the patent life by having the new formulation
licensed as a new drug.

Of course, the cynics might like to suggest that they had the coating
well in advance but saved it until they needed it. I wouldn't know
anythig about that.

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ginge - 06 Aug 2007 15:57 GMT
> But as I said, these will be recognised as a different formulation, so
> any generic version of the original will not be equivalent. This can
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> were then able to extend the patent life by having the new formulation
> licensed as a new drug.

The old version did still go generic though didn't it?  And, I'd imagine
that has still hit sales.

AFAIK generic Ranitidine (Zantac) is pretty much the default thing NHS
doctors prescribe for that type of thing these days.
Ace - 06 Aug 2007 18:41 GMT
>> But as I said, these will be recognised as a different formulation, so
>> any generic version of the original will not be equivalent. This can
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>The old version did still go generic though didn't it?  

Generic versions of the basic molecule were not stopped by the new
coating - they just couldn't use it, whereas the coated version was
granted, IIRC, something like ten years additional patent life;
admittedly for a much smaller market segment, where the coating was
beneficial.

>And, I'd imagine that has still hit sales.

Well yes, but it's now largely been superceded anyway. But in any
event, it went OTC (as a treatment for heartburn) with 'Zantac 75' in
about 1997, and in that market, more so even than with prescription
drugs, first-to-market is a massive advantage, usually retaining
25-30% of the market even with multiple generic/competitor drugs.

It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
we're 2nd (or later) to market we may be unable to recoup the
development costs.

>AFAIK generic Ranitidine (Zantac) is pretty much the default thing NHS
>doctors prescribe for that type of thing these days.

It wouldn't surprise me, but the more developed parts of the world
have now mainly moved on to a new class of drugs called proton pump
inhibitors.

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DR - 06 Aug 2007 19:14 GMT
>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
>we're 2nd (or later) to market we may be unable to recoup the
>development costs.

Heaven forbid that a pharmaceuticals company might actually make
someone's life better without making a profit.

Yes, I know how business works.  I don't have to like it.

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GSF1200N K3

Champ - 06 Aug 2007 22:04 GMT
>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Heaven forbid that a pharmaceuticals company might actually make
>someone's life better without making a profit.

Don't be so naive.

>Yes, I know how business works.  I don't have to like it.

Just think a tiny bit harder, FFS.  If a drug company loses money
developing new drugs, repeatedly, it will go out of business. And then
who will "make someone's life better"?
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DR - 06 Aug 2007 22:33 GMT
>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>developing new drugs, repeatedly, it will go out of business. And then
>who will "make someone's life better"?

Oh, I don't care.  It's not my world.  There will always be someone
looking to gain, they'll do it.

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GSF1200N K3

Champ - 06 Aug 2007 22:57 GMT
>>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Oh, I don't care.  It's not my world.  

It's not?  Whose is it then?

>There will always be someone looking to gain, they'll do it.

I'd like to comment on this sentence, but it doesn't seem to say
anything.

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To email me, neal at my domain should work.

DR - 06 Aug 2007 23:31 GMT
>>>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>I'd like to comment on this sentence, but it doesn't seem to say
>anything.

Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say.

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Darren
GSF1200N K3

AndrewR - 06 Aug 2007 23:41 GMT
> Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say.

That should be carved in stone over the gateway to Usenet.

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The speccy Geordie twat.

Phil Launchbury - 07 Aug 2007 10:40 GMT
>> Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say.
>
> That should be carved in stone over the gateway to Usenet.

Along with "Abandon rationality all you who post here" and "cogito ergo
non-post".

Phil.

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ogden - 07 Aug 2007 11:22 GMT
> Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say.

Did you ever?

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sv650 - surprisingly quick for a girl's bike

DR - 07 Aug 2007 18:23 GMT
>> Having given the matter some thought, I've nothing further to say.
>
>Did you ever?

Say anything?  Yes.

I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt.  I realise I have
little control over this, however.

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GSF1200N K3

ogden - 07 Aug 2007 19:47 GMT
> I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt.

I, naturally, have no such qualms.

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sv650 - surprisingly quick for a girl's bike

Bear - 07 Aug 2007 19:55 GMT
> > I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt.
>
> I, naturally, have no such qualms.

And the UKRM "Stating The Bleedin Obvious" award of 2007 goes to ...
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Bear

DR - 07 Aug 2007 21:14 GMT
>> I'd rather be thought of as naïve than as a c.nt.
>
>I, naturally, have no such qualms.

You may be assured that I am very much aware of that.

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Darren
GSF1200N K3

ginge - 06 Aug 2007 23:17 GMT
> >>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
> >>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> developing new drugs, repeatedly, it will go out of business. And then
> who will "make someone's life better"?

Hmm, I'm having a 2 threads converge moment here...

It's uncanny just how similar the development costs of the
pharmaceutical industry are to the way something like the movie industry
works.  And how drug licensing is a lot like DRM..

I think at this point I'm going to stop making comparisons, I'm not sure
I'd be entirely comfortable with the idea of being able to buy baked to
order generic unlicenced tablets, over the web, from Russians.
raden - 06 Aug 2007 22:23 GMT
>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Yes, I know how business works.  I don't have to like it.

I bet you'll be happy to know, then, that the gubmint is going to buy
thousands of F&M vaccinations from the Pirbright centre where they think
the outbreak originated

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geoff

DR - 06 Aug 2007 22:35 GMT
>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>thousands of F&M vaccinations from the Pirbright centre where they think
>the outbreak originated

It would be easy to be cynical; I'd go for Hanlon's Razor in this
case.  If it's proven that Pirbright is responsible, then emergency
powers should be used to take what's needed from them.

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Darren
GSF1200N K3

Phil Launchbury - 07 Aug 2007 10:38 GMT
>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Heaven forbid that a pharmaceuticals company might actually make
> someone's life better without making a profit.

And then how would they pay for the development of new drugs? It isn't
exactly cheap. Not that I'm saying big pharma isn't clean - far from
it - like any big shareholding company they care only about increasing
the size of their profit margin.
But it is *staggeringly* expensive developing new drugs - something
like 1 in 10000 of new compounds end up actually coming to market - and
a substantial number of those get very close (and have a lot of money
spent on development and testing) before being finally discarded.

> Yes, I know how business works.  I don't have to like it.

Fine - set yourself up in business to do it 'ethically'. See how long
you last without a budget or money.

Phil.

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DR - 07 Aug 2007 18:20 GMT
>>>It's why we often halt developement of a drug quite early, even if we
>>>know it's likely to work and that there's a big market for it - if
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Fine - set yourself up in business to do it 'ethically'. See how long
>you last without a budget or money.

I've long since abandoned any pretence towards ethics.  Like I say,
I've given the matter a small amount of further consideration, and
withdraw my objections.

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Darren
GSF1200N K3

dog - 06 Aug 2007 16:19 GMT
>  ... (I've got some
>  600mg "Brufen Retard" in front of me as I speak) ...

that's a great sounding name.
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dog
sl1000 two#5
"nobody except the poor, who can't afford the pills..."

Badger - 06 Aug 2007 16:43 GMT
> By that time, however, Glaxo had, developed a new coating which both
> significantly increased its tolerability - an important aspect for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> well in advance but saved it until they needed it. I wouldn't know
> anythig about that.

Heh!

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Rick
NT650V (still)
TWA#11  BREast#6  BOTAFOT#139

Grimly Curmudgeon - 06 Aug 2007 17:18 GMT
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying
something like:

>>And the coating?  What sorts of differences can they make to the
>>effectiveness/safety/whatever of different brands of what is ostensibly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>stomach, when it will be more effective and/or less irritant in the
>intestines.

It is a fact, subjective though it may be, that some generics have
different side-effects to the originals. Whether this is due to coatings
or a variation of the basic active formulation isn't important - what is
important is that if one is taking a branded drug and then shunted onto
a generic with unpleasant side-effects the difference is noticeable.
Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.
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Ace - 06 Aug 2007 18:46 GMT
>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>It is a fact, subjective though it may be,

How can it be both subjective and a fact?

>that some generics have different side-effects to the originals.

Can you find a reference for this? I've never heard that this is the
case.

>Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.

Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder,
but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up.

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Grimly Curmudgeon - 06 Aug 2007 22:33 GMT
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying
something like:

>>It is a fact, subjective though it may be,
>
>How can it be both subjective and a fact?

Personally speaking, it is a fact.

>>that some generics have different side-effects to the originals.
>
>Can you find a reference for this? I've never heard that this is the
>case.

Ask around, you'll find thousands of people who know it to be true. Not
everything can be measured.

>>Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.
>
>Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder,
>but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up.

As I say, it happens, beyond all doubt. Most of the time the
side-effects aren't life-threatening, just irritating.
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Champ - 06 Aug 2007 22:58 GMT
>Not everything can be measured.

In the case of drug manufacturer, how would you expect a pharma
company to respond to an effect that "can't be measured"?
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ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

Grimly Curmudgeon - 06 Aug 2007 23:37 GMT
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> saying
something like:

>>Not everything can be measured.
>
>In the case of drug manufacturer, how would you expect a pharma
>company to respond to an effect that "can't be measured"?

I don't, in this example. The generics aren't unsafe, and most people
who take them wouldn't notice a difference anyway. It's just that some
(in total, a lot of) people find there is a difference - either in
efficacy or one or two minor side-effects that didn't show up with the
branded med.

You should read a pharma listing - there's an amazing amount of
side-effects listed for just about every drug under the sun, so it's
hardly surprising that a slight difference in the formulation or coating
or etc will affect some consumers.
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Teach a man to fish and he and his pikey mates will have the
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Champ - 07 Aug 2007 09:20 GMT
>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> saying
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>efficacy or one or two minor side-effects that didn't show up with the
>branded med.

If there's a real difference, it can be measured.  If it can't be
measured, there's no difference.

You choose.

Anyway, sounds like placebo effect (which, of course, *can* be
measured) is the most likely explanation to me.

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I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

Ace - 07 Aug 2007 09:27 GMT
>Anyway, sounds like placebo effect (which, of course, *can* be
>measured) is the most likely explanation to me.

Much moer likely that some other external factor was at work. There
are just so many things that affect the way drugs work, which is why
such small samples must be regarded as unproven, of course.

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Phil Launchbury - 07 Aug 2007 10:32 GMT
> You should read a pharma listing - there's an amazing amount of
> side-effects listed for just about every drug under the sun, so it's

You do know how clinical trials are conducted don't you? The drugs are
given out to the volunteers and *any* symptom displayed by the
volunteers is logged. If more than a set proportion of the volunteers
display the symptom then it is assumed to be caused by the drug - even
if it isn't. And anything that is logged like that has to be mentioned
on the drug literature as possible side effects.

So you get the absurd situation where my migraine medication
(topiramate) has the side effect of 'causes headaches'.. when in fact
what it does is vastly *reduce* the incidence of them. But because the
volunteers recorded the fact that they had headaches after taking the
drugs it is recorded as a side effect.

> hardly surprising that a slight difference in the formulation or coating
> or etc will affect some consumers.

There will be no variation in formulation of the active compound -
otherwise it won't be the same drug. Any variation in the coating would
have to have the same pharmacokinetic properties as the original unless
they specifically want it to have other properties - again it forms
part of the generics license.

There may be synergy effects with variations on the filler compound of
the tablets but I suspect they would be dwarfed by the placebo effect.

Phil.

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            Phil Launchbury, IT PHB
   'I'm training the bats that live in my cube
             to juggle mushrooms'

Ace - 07 Aug 2007 07:39 GMT
>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember Ace <seesig@virgin.net> saying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Personally speaking, it is a fact.

But subject to what?

>>>that some generics have different side-effects to the originals.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Ask around, you'll find thousands of people who know it to be true. Not
>everything can be measured.

Rubbish. We have thousands people in our company alone whose entire
working lives are dedicated to identifying adverse drug reactions. If
one drug, or formulation, behaves differently from another one, that
difference can be meaasured.

>>>Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.
>>
>>Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder,
>>but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up.
>
>As I say, it happens, beyond all doubt.

_You_ may have no doubt, and there are many others of a like mind, I'm
sure, but if you don't have even a shred of empirical evidence how can
you possibly expect anyone, either here or in the industry, to take
such claims seriously?

Note that I'm not claiming that you're wrong, but just trying to take
a vaguely scientific approach of looking for evidence to support an
hypothesis. I'd be more than happy to see such evidence.

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Bear - 06 Aug 2007 23:29 GMT
> >that some generics have different side-effects to the originals.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Well I'd love to be able to support that, as employee and shareholder,
> but as I said, I've never seen any evidence to bacl it up.

We've done this before.   You never believe it, but those of us who use
said products know *precisely* what we mean.

Eh Pip?
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Bear

Ace - 07 Aug 2007 07:47 GMT
>> >Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>We've done this before.   You never believe it, but those of us who use
>said products know *precisely* what we mean.

It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem to
backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it had no
nasty effects, but when I took brand Y it caused symptom Z".

I'm not suggesting for a second that such claims are anything other
than genuine, but the extrapolation into statements such as Grimply's
"It's a fact that some generics have different side-effects to the
originals" are spurious at best, and potentially misleading if taken
at face value, unless there is properly-gathered evidence to support
them.

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Bear - 07 Aug 2007 18:06 GMT
> >> >Cheap drugs are fine, but the branded ones are often preferable.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> at face value, unless there is properly-gathered evidence to support
> them.

The reasonableness of your reply indicates *your* medications are
working just fine.
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Bear

Ace - 07 Aug 2007 18:22 GMT
>> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem to
>> backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it had no
>> nasty effects, but when I took brand Y it caused symptom Z".

>The reasonableness of your reply indicates *your* medications are
>working just fine.

Actually I'm not doing at all well at the moment. Was fin up until
about 3 weeks after the op, dropping the painkiller dosage
considerably and starting to do stuff, including some light weights
work and a bit of cycling. That latter (about 4 miles each way, with a
superb village restaurant luch + wine in between) may have been the
trigger, I don't know, but I started to get severe muscle pains which
don't seem to respond to drugs after that which I've been struggling
to resolve. Last couple of days I've had a dodgy stomach too and am
feeling generally crap.

Had an hour-long T/C earlier where I recognised from my reactions that
my mental state's not too good either. Could think straight-ish, but
my tolerance for fools is around zero at the moment, which isn't good
in my job.  I'll be doing at least a couple of hours in the office
tomorrow, following a physio appt. so I'll see how well I survive
there.

I'm determined to _not_ fall into the trap I did after the accident of
going back too early (in that case about six weeks later), taking on
stuff which I wasn't mentally able to cope with and failing a couple
of (personal) deadlines as a result, mainly due to pain causing
tiredness causing intolerance and lack of focus-ability.

Other than that I'm fine.
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Bear - 07 Aug 2007 18:26 GMT
> >> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem to
> >> backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it had no
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> to resolve. Last couple of days I've had a dodgy stomach too and am
> feeling generally crap.

Strewth :( Sorry to hear that.

It does reinforce my theory that exercise just isn't good for people,
though.  Have you tried taking up smoking and drinking instead?

> Had an hour-long T/C earlier where I recognised from my reactions that
> my mental state's not too good either. Could think straight-ish, but
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> of (personal) deadlines as a result, mainly due to pain causing
> tiredness causing intolerance and lack of focus-ability.

I know this sounds a bit off the wall, but what are the side-effects of
coming off the painkillers you were on?  Were you on opiates?

> Other than that I'm fine.

Sounds like a bundle of laughs.  GWS.
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Bear

Hog - 07 Aug 2007 18:38 GMT
>>>> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem
>>>> to backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> It does reinforce my theory that exercise just isn't good for people,
> though.  Have you tried taking up smoking and drinking instead?

That got a big laugh!
GSOH is essential in these situations.

Is it muscle pain or in the ligaments/tendons I wonder. There would be some
quite good herbal remedies for that and in terms of pain control Sir needs
some good quality mary jane.

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Hog
'03 ST4S  '96 Bastard12  '89 R100RS  '81 XS650  '78 RD400

Bear - 07 Aug 2007 19:48 GMT
> >>>> It's not that I don't believe it, but that such claims never seem
> >>>> to backed up by any evidence other than "when I took brand X it
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> That got a big laugh!
> GSOH is essential in these situations.

That's prompted a memory of me lying on a specialist's examination
table, in the kin