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Motorcycle Forum / Country Specific / UK Group / February 2008



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Flat tracking

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Andy Bonwick - 24 Feb 2008 20:26 GMT
f.cking hilarious but also very disconcerting.

Well worth the money and we got enough track time to make me feel more
than a bit beaten up. No crashes by the ukrm contingent and a fair bit
was learned about exactly how much you can slide/spin a back tyre on a
loose surface and not crash.

The best bit was the fact that they actually let you race and none of
us came last. Admittedly darsy and I were in the nobbers (slowest
pussy bitch) group but Champ was in the B group (they ran A, B, C &
w.nkers) races and almost sneaked a win.
Nige - 24 Feb 2008 20:39 GMT
> f.cking hilarious but also very disconcerting.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> pussy bitch) group but Champ was in the B group (they ran A, B, C &
> w.nkers) races and almost sneaked a win.

Sounds like fun!

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darsy - 24 Feb 2008 22:50 GMT
> f.cking hilarious but also very disconcerting.
>
> Well worth the money and we got enough track time to make me feel more
> than a bit beaten up. No crashes by the ukrm contingent and a fair bit
> was learned about exactly how much you can slide/spin a back tyre on a
> loose surface and not crash.

frankly, I am totally amazed I didn't fall off, and yes, I'm well
aware it was because I wasn't trying hard enough.

> The best bit was the fact that they actually let you race and none of
> us came last.

I had a jolly good go at coming last, due to stalling the thing on the
starting line, but fortunately someone else fell off.

> Admittedly darsy and I were in the nobbers (slowest
> pussy bitch) group but Champ was in the B group (they ran A, B, C &
> w.nkers) races and almost sneaked a win.

if he'd done what everyone else in his group had done (gone before the
flag had been properly waved) he'd have one.

As it is, he lost "by a nose" ;-)

--
d.
Champ - 25 Feb 2008 09:44 GMT
>f.cking hilarious but also very disconcerting.
>
>Well worth the money and we got enough track time to make me feel more
>than a bit beaten up.

Christ yes - I'm moving aroung like a cripple today, and that's
without crashing!  My left ankle is proper f.cked.

>No crashes by the ukrm contingent and a fair bit
>was learned about exactly how much you can slide/spin a back tyre on a
>loose surface and not crash.

It was amazing - by the end my left leg was so knackered I put it on
the peg as soon as I started to exit the corner and rode the thing,
sliding and bucking.  Makes you feel like a god.

>The best bit was the fact that they actually let you race and none of
>us came last. Admittedly darsy and I were in the nobbers (slowest
>pussy bitch) group but Champ was in the B group (they ran A, B, C &
>w.nkers) races and almost sneaked a win.

For me, riding in the race was 100 times better than all the practice
sessions - having other riders to deal with, to make me try as hard as
I dared put it all into focus. I f.cking loved it!

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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
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neal at champ dot org dot uk

Lozzo - 25 Feb 2008 09:49 GMT
> For me, riding in the race was 100 times better than all the practice
> sessions - having other riders to deal with, to make me try as hard as
> I dared put it all into focus. I f.cking loved it!

Thinking of changing your racing plans for 2009?

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Lozzo
Slightly bent Suzuki SV650S K5

darsy - 25 Feb 2008 09:52 GMT
> > For me, riding in the race was 100 times better than all the practice
> > sessions - having other riders to deal with, to make me try as hard as
> > I dared put it all into focus. I f.cking loved it!
>
> Thinking of changing your racing plans for 2009?

having seen how the actual racers do it, he'd have f.cking no chance.

no offence, Champ, and I think you'd agree.

--
d.
Pip - 25 Feb 2008 11:00 GMT
>no offence

This place has gone to the dogs.

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Phil Launchbury - 25 Feb 2008 12:58 GMT
>>no offence
>
> This place has gone to the dogs.

Nah. Dogs have got better things to do than inhabit this place.

Phil

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darsy - 25 Feb 2008 14:29 GMT
> >no offence
>
> This place has gone to the dogs.

what would you know, nube?

--
d.
Pip - 25 Feb 2008 16:40 GMT
>> >no offence
>>
>> This place has gone to the dogs.
>
>what would you know, nube?

When you start apologising for possibly causing offence, ffs.  You're
going soft with age.

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Pip: B12

Champ - 25 Feb 2008 11:03 GMT
>> > For me, riding in the race was 100 times better than all the practice
>> > sessions - having other riders to deal with, to make me try as hard as
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>having seen how the actual racers do it, he'd have f.cking no chance.

Quite so.

>no offence, Champ, and I think you'd agree.

Oh, I do, I really do.

I mean, I like to think I might get a bit better, but I'm way too
f.cking old for learning those sort of new tricks.
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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

Eiron - 25 Feb 2008 11:21 GMT
>>>> For me, riding in the race was 100 times better than all the practice
>>>> sessions - having other riders to deal with, to make me try as hard as
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I mean, I like to think I might get a bit better, but I'm way too
> f.cking old for learning those sort of new tricks.

It might improve your road racing. Back in the seventies when the Yanks were
beating all the Brits except Barry Sheene, it was said that they were so
good
because of all that racing round dirt ovals on XR750s and TZ750s

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Eiron.

Lozzo - 25 Feb 2008 11:27 GMT

> It might improve your road racing. Back in the seventies when the
> Yanks were beating all the Brits except Barry Sheene, it was said
> that they were so good because of all that racing round dirt ovals on
> XR750s and TZ750s

Kenny Roberts only ever raced the TZ750 creation twice, and vowed never
to throw a leg over it again. He reckoned it was evil and would finally
do for him.

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Lozzo
Slightly bent Suzuki SV650S K5

The Older Gentleman - 25 Feb 2008 19:38 GMT
>  
> > It might improve your road racing. Back in the seventies when the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to throw a leg over it again. He reckoned it was evil and would finally
> do for him.

He raced the XS650-based flat trackers rather more frequently, though.

Still one of the best-looking race bikes, IMHO.

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Lozzo - 25 Feb 2008 20:27 GMT
> >  
> > > It might improve your road racing. Back in the seventies when the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Still one of the best-looking race bikes, IMHO.

He actually did quite alot of his dirt-tracking on TZ350 based bikes,
which looked rather cool.

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Lozzo
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The Older Gentleman - 25 Feb 2008 22:42 GMT
> He actually did quite alot of his dirt-tracking on TZ350 based bikes,

Now that I never knew.

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Pete Fisher - 25 Feb 2008 11:30 GMT
In communiqué <62fmm6F2371orU1@mid.individual.net>, Eiron
<E1ron@hotmail.com> cast forth these pearls of wisdom

>>>>> For me, riding in the race was 100 times better than all the practice
>>>>> sessions - having other riders to deal with, to make me try as hard as
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>so good
>because of all that racing round dirt ovals on XR750s and TZ750s

He could try going quicker than McGuinness up Barbon first.
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Champ - 25 Feb 2008 12:13 GMT
>> I mean, I like to think I might get a bit better, but I'm way too
>> f.cking old for learning those sort of new tricks.
>
>It might improve your road racing. Back in the seventies when the Yanks were
>beating all the Brits except Barry Sheene, it was said that they were so
>good because of all that racing round dirt ovals on XR750s and TZ750s

Well, Loz has pointed out the history of the TZ flat-tracker, which
was very shortlived.

But, of course, I did this very event because I thought (as well as
being lots of fun), it might be useful for road-racing.  And the likes
of John McGuinness and Guy Martin enter occasional flat track races
for similar reasons.

But my point is that it's too late for me to get very good at it.
That's not to rule out having a go occasionally, tho.

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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

darsy - 25 Feb 2008 15:52 GMT
> >having seen how the actual racers do it, he'd have f.cking no chance.
>
> Quite so.

it's a distinct (though of course related) set of skills from road
racing, AFAICS.

> >no offence, Champ, and I think you'd agree.
>
> Oh, I do, I really do.
>
> I mean, I like to think I might get a bit better, but I'm way too
> f.cking old for learning those sort of new tricks.

plus, not being a teenager/in your 20s, you're not nearly immortal
enough to try.

--
d.
Champ - 25 Feb 2008 16:10 GMT
>> >having seen how the actual racers do it, he'd have f.cking no chance.
>>
>> Quite so.
>
>it's a distinct (though of course related) set of skills from road
>racing, AFAICS.

I found that driving *out* of the corner was actually quite close -
all about feeling the connection between right wrist and rear-tyre.  

My problems were more to do with corner entry, and, especially after
it had rained, controlling it mid-corner.

>> >no offence, Champ, and I think you'd agree.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>plus, not being a teenager/in your 20s, you're not nearly immortal
>enough to try.

Not nearly stupid enough, either.
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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

Champ - 25 Feb 2008 11:05 GMT
>f.cking hilarious but also very disconcerting.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>pussy bitch) group but Champ was in the B group (they ran A, B, C &
>w.nkers) races and almost sneaked a win.

Just as another follow up - I'd really, really recommend this to
anyone remotely interested.  The URL is
http://www.dynomaxuk.com/flat_track.html
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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

CT - 25 Feb 2008 11:13 GMT
> Just as another follow up - I'd really, really recommend this to
> anyone remotely interested.  The URL is
> http://www.dynomaxuk.com/flat_track.html

Looks interesting, but not for me.  I'd be bloody knackered after half
an hour round the cones!

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Chris

Veggie Dave - 25 Feb 2008 16:34 GMT
UK Flat Track Championship for those interested:
www.shorttrackuk.com

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Wicked Uncle Nigel - 25 Feb 2008 17:42 GMT
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Veggie Dave
<Veggie~Dave@127.0.0.1> typed
>UK Flat Track Championship for those interested:
>www.shorttrackuk.com

Is that like the short bus?

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My position was (and, to be honest, largely remains) one of complete ambiguity.

Champ - 26 Feb 2008 19:01 GMT
I did a write up on the day for Another Place, so thought I'd post it
here too

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Some of you may have seen that PB magazine has been promoting
short-track racing in the UK for a while.  CCM are quite into this,
and have started running some days called "The Short-track
Experience".  A mate was interested, so he got a group together and I
signed up.

So, at 9am on Sunday morning, I found myself at Scunthorpe Speedway.
This is a lot earlier, and a lot further north, than I like to start
my Sundays. The place was fairly cold and windswept, but the people
were friendly, and coffee and biccies were provided while we signed
on.  Pete Boast is one of the movers behind short-track in this
country, and he gave the briefing, which was thankfully short of H&S
nonsense.  We were split into four groups of six, each with an
instructor, and, after getting changed, went out onto the track.

For the first exercise each group had a bit of the track to
themselves, and you had to ride the bike around two cones about 20
yrds apart.  The idea was to break the back away with the rear brake
on the way in, turn, and then spin the rear up on the way out.  The
bikes were CCMs, built for the job, and, of course, had no front
brakes.  This exercise I found relatively straightforward, and could
break traction on the loose surface under power and ride it out with a
reasonable amount of confidence.  The other immediately obvious thing
was how much it made your left leg hurt, holding it out to catch too
big a slide through each turn.

For the second exercise, the cones were moved much further apart, and
we used 2nd gear instead of 1st.  This made the power much more
controllable, and was generally more fun.  It felt amazing to be
spinning the rear up on purpose, initially with left foot on the
ground, but confidently placing it on the peg as I rode the slide out.

Then we moved to everyone using the whole circuit.  In some ways this
was a bit of a backward step, as the proper 'line' round the circuit
was pretty hard-packed, and therefore provided too much grip.  While
the bike was moving around a bit on the gas out of each curve, I can't
claim I was really sideways.  (The instructors showed how it should be
done by whacking the throttle open at max lean and riding it out with
the rear wheel 30+ degrees out of line).  Doing half a dozen laps left
most people's left legs complaining severely.

Then we had a break for lunch.  Provided.  Very civilised.

The next session involved riding with the instructor, initially
following him, then him following you.  Again, my whole body ached
after just a few laps - it's incredibly physical.  But the feeling of
leaning over what felt like A LOT on dirt, and cracking the throttle
open, was great fun.  My instructor said I had great throttle control,
but I bet he says that to all the boys.

Then it rained a bit, just enough to make the track properly wet and
muddy, and it got very interesting indeed...  The basic technique
didn't change, but the bikes really would slide at the slightest
provocation now, and it was very obvious how easy it would be to fall
off.  

The arrival of the rain was well timed, as we were split into groups A
to D based on our instructors assessments, and we got to RACE!!! (Tho
it's not allowed to be called a race, for insurance reasons).  I was
seeded in group B - slightly disapppointed, but perhaps with a better
chance of a result. Each group got a couple of practice starts, and
then the flag dropped on a six-lapper.  Group D started, and was a
fairly spread out affair.  Someone still fell off, tho.  Group C was a
bit more committed.  Then it was my turn.  For both practice starts
everyone (except me) left as the flag was raised, instead of dropped.
We all got told to wait for the *drop* for the proper start, but again
most cheated. I was still 4th into the first corner, and then quickly
up into third.  I settled a little, and then the guy in first place
fell off, elevating me to 2nd and allowing me to catch the new front
runner.  I was faster, and was also pushed on by what felt like
someone right on my shoulder (but which was probably just the edge of
my goggles catching my eye).  I was trying hard, nearly crashing on
every corner (OK, there's only two, but the bike was moving around all
the time), but I was catching the front runner.  With one lap to go I
was on him, but passing is another matter.  I was alongside on the
back straight, but he was braver diving into the last corner.  I had
better speed and traction on the way out and gave it everything, but
it was not enough, losing by half a wheel over the line.

I was so fired up!  Racing had transformed a difficult and slightly
scary discipline into a wheel to wheel adrenaline rush!  I'd been
following the front runner so closely for the last 2 laps that I was
utterly plastered with mud.  

Some young British GP125 won the A race.  He's doing the British
championships, some spanish races and a couple of MotoGP wildcards
this year, so quite handy, I suppose :-)

Anyway, there it is.  As someone who has almost zero dirt bike
experience, I really enjoyed myself and was very pleased with how well
I went.  For anyone remotely interested in a great day out where you
really do improve your machine control, I can't recommend it enough.

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Champ

ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

darsy - 27 Feb 2008 09:36 GMT
> I did a write up on the day for Another Place, so thought I'd post it
> here too
[snip]

good summary.

Is your left leg still stiff today? Mine still isn't quite right[1]

[1] haha.

--
d.
Champ - 27 Feb 2008 09:48 GMT
>Is your left leg still stiff today?

The main problem I had Monday and Tuesday was a sprained left ankle.
Easily the worst motorcycling injury I've had without actually
crashing.  Today it's nearly better.

>Mine still isn't quite right[1]

My leg itself is ok - little bit achy in the hip region, but that's
all

>[1] haha.

"I've got nothing against your left leg".
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Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

Ace - 27 Feb 2008 10:12 GMT
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:48:52 +0000, in
<uqbas3185ttmj9f5usle4ed73j0r9i3hr4@4ax.com>, Champ
<news@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>>Is your left leg still stiff today?
>
>The main problem I had Monday and Tuesday was a sprained left ankle.

ITYM "strained".

>Easily the worst motorcycling injury I've had without actually
>crashing.  Today it's nearly better.

Definitely not sprained then. That would mean ligament damage which
would take weeks, at least, to completely heal.

>>Mine still isn't quite right[1]
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>"I've got nothing against your left leg".

<resists>

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Champ - 27 Feb 2008 10:23 GMT
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:48:52 +0000, in
><uqbas3185ttmj9f5usle4ed73j0r9i3hr4@4ax.com>, Champ
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>ITYM "strained".

Probably

>>Easily the worst motorcycling injury I've had without actually
>>crashing.  Today it's nearly better.
>
>Definitely not sprained then. That would mean ligament damage which
>would take weeks, at least, to completely heal.

Sure.  It was pretty painful on Monday, and I had to walk with a very
obvious limp, but I take your point.

Does 'sprained' have a medical definition, then?  And what the
difference between 'sprained' and 'twisted'?
Signature

Champ
I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race)
neal at champ dot org dot uk

Ace - 27 Feb 2008 10:27 GMT
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:23:59 +0000, in
<oeeas3him6clppra26u18hakup2ut6vgvt@4ax.com>, Champ
<news@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>Does 'sprained' have a medical definition, then?  

ICBW but I've always taken "Sprained" to refer specifically to damaged
ligaments. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sprain seems to
concur.

>And what the difference between 'sprained' and 'twisted'?

The former is the damage done, the latter the means by which you may
have done it.

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darsy - 27 Feb 2008 10:28 GMT
> >Is your left leg still stiff today?
>
> The main problem I had Monday and Tuesday was a sprained left ankle.
> Easily the worst motorcycling injury I've had without actually
> crashing.  Today it's nearly better.

> My leg itself is ok - little bit achy in the hip region, but that's
> all

my ankle and hip is fine - the top of my thigh is very stiff, though
better than on Monday - on Monday if I was lost in a desert, I'd have
been walking in very tight circles.

--
d.
Andy Bonwick - 27 Feb 2008 19:41 GMT
>> I did a write up on the day for Another Place, so thought I'd post it
>> here too
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Is your left leg still stiff today? Mine still isn't quite right[1]

My leg's still a bit stiff but nothing like as bad as it felt on
Monday morning. I'm not cut out for that sort of sh.t...
darsy - 28 Feb 2008 09:40 GMT
> >Is your left leg still stiff today? Mine still isn't quite right[1]
>
> My leg's still a bit stiff but nothing like as bad as it felt on
> Monday morning. I'm not cut out for that sort of sh.t...

well, you are really rather old - it's only to be expected.

--
d.
Hog - 28 Feb 2008 11:53 GMT
>>> Is your left leg still stiff today? Mine still isn't quite right[1]
>>
>> My leg's still a bit stiff but nothing like as bad as it felt on
>> Monday morning. I'm not cut out for that sort of sh.t...
>
> well, you are really rather old - it's only to be expected.

I knew there were good reasons not to do this but I regret not having
spectated. Getting wasted in 'Dam got in the way.

Hotel plug:  The Victoria. It isn't the Kras but for 'Dam it's ok and in a
great location. Kras was full and the Vic turned out cheaper, they do some
"deals".

I predict it isn't going to persist as Sin City forever. The Eurocrats are
ever_so_gradually sanitizing even this Den of Iniquity.

However, for now, I discovered the perfect hotel retreat for some of our
posters, possibly even Cane  www.blacktulip.nl

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Hog
'03 ST4S  '96 Bastard12  '89 R100RS  '81 XS650  '78 RD400

Paul Corfield - 28 Feb 2008 19:21 GMT
>However, for now, I discovered the perfect hotel retreat for some of our
>posters, possibly even Cane  www.blacktulip.nl

Did you inspect it personally?
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Hog - 29 Feb 2008 17:35 GMT
>> However, for now, I discovered the perfect hotel retreat for some of
>> our posters, possibly even Cane  www.blacktulip.nl
>
> Did you inspect it personally?

Well we had a look through the door!

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Hog
'03 ST4S  '96 Bastard12  '89 R100RS  '81 XS650  '78 RD400

Andy Bonwick - 28 Feb 2008 19:18 GMT
>> >Is your left leg still stiff today? Mine still isn't quite right[1]
>>
>> My leg's still a bit stiff but nothing like as bad as it felt on
>> Monday morning. I'm not cut out for that sort of sh.t...
>
>well, you are really rather old - it's only to be expected.

I realised I was 'rather old' when I stopped at the motorway services
on the way back from the MGP last year to find I had a text message
telling me I had a granddaughter.
wessie - 27 Feb 2008 15:31 GMT
Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:3eo8s3td4mqq3sf7k7qqujr1u6onkt3cei@
4ax.com:

> This exercise I found relatively straightforward, and could
> break traction on the loose surface under power and ride it out with a
> reasonable amount of confidence.  The other immediately obvious thing
> was how much it made your left leg hurt, holding it out to catch too
> big a slide through each turn.

This rider seems to be using the technique you describe on tarmac roads:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3s04q_1007-montee-ospedale_auto

No hits on the gingeometer.

It's quite long and the interesting riding doesn't start to happen until
after they leave the urban area.

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BMW R1150GS

Champ - 27 Feb 2008 21:02 GMT
>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:3eo8s3td4mqq3sf7k7qqujr1u6onkt3cei@
>4ax.com:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3s04q_1007-montee-ospedale_auto

Well, he's certainly backing it in using the bake brake.  And sticking
his leg down mid corner, but for no obvious benefit.  And I guess he
doesn't have enough power to break traction on corner exit.

>It's quite long and the interesting riding doesn't start to happen until
>after they leave the urban area.

Sure.  But still a fantastic display of gallic hooliganism, imo.
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Champ

ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

 
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