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Motorcycle Forum / Country Specific / UK Group / April 2008Petrol Drinking Tramp aka Kawasaki GT750
It's really heavy on fuel ~ 35 mpg on a 80-90 mph motorway run (should be 45mpg). It also 'hunts' slightly sat at 6-7K rpm but its quite feint. Its maximum speed is 125mph and feels wooly sub 5K (with the 3K step due to the f.cking Motad) but idles well enough. I've had the carbs off and noted that 2 and 3 had slightly sticky slides which may explain the coil like symptoms it had before I cleaned them with carb cleaner. I didn't get the float chambers or diaphragm caps off as I've lent my impact driver to someone (I must get it back - I never really needed it on the Guzzi or MZs) and the screws felt like they were made of cheese. I'm suspecting a trip to the local bike shop's ultrasonic cleaner is in order. However, I've checked the valve clearences (with a very slightly warm engine but not hot). Now, I've never had to do this before and this is what I ended up with: Exhaust 1 0.10 / 0.15 x 2 0.10 / 0.15 x 3 0.05 / 0.10 x 4 0.05 / 0.10 x Inlet 5 0.15 / 0.20 x 6 0.05 / 0.10 x 7 0.10 / 0.15 x 8 0.10 / 0.15 x The clearances are 0.08 - 0.18, the clearances I measured are supposed to be shown as "/" the feeler gauge fitted and "x" it didn't. What's the general view?  SignatureSimon In communiqué <xn0fpfvbha15bz001@news.individual.net>, sweller <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> cast forth these pearls of wisdom >However, I've checked the valve clearences (with a very slightly warm >engine but not hot). Now, I've never had to do this before and this is [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >What's the general view? Personally, I would be easing off Exhaust 4 and Inlet 6, but then the only machines I would be doing it myself on are SOBs with screw and locknut adjustment, not shims, even the DOHC ones. A bit of tappety noise is better than a burnt valve IMO. Signature+----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pete Fisher at Home: Peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk | | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z | | Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > However, I've checked the valve clearences (with a very slightly warm > engine but not hot). Now, I've never had to do this before and this is [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > What's the general view? Lookjs like the no.3 and no.4 exhaust clearances are on the limit and ditto the no.6 inlet, but if they're out of clearance, they'll only be fractionally out and not enough to explain the heavy fuel consumption. Have you checked the needle settings? Also, I'd check whether the needles are worn. That would certainly explain heavy fuel consumption in the mid-range. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB that despatch firms tend to test GT550's for compression and only check/adjust clearances if the compression is low on any cylinder. Crude, but effective and a FS cheaper than unnecessarily pissing about with shims every time. Can you do a comp test on yours? It might also tell if your rings have gone (as Sid James would say!). Air filter okay? Mitch > Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB that despatch firms > tend to test GT550's for compression and only check/adjust clearances > if the compression is low on any cylinder. Crude, but effective and a > FS cheaper than unnecessarily pissing about with shims every time. Can > you do a comp test on yours? It might also tell if your rings have gone > (as Sid James would say!). What would expect as compression on a 45K bike? Personally, I'd expect not far off show-room. SignatureSimon > What would expect as compression on a 45K bike? Personally, I'd expect > not far off show-room. The absolute pressure is not that important, just look for inconsistencies of pressure cyl to cyl. Its normally the case that when compression is a problem then one or two cyls might have a lower pressure than the others. If they are all the same pressure then everything is probably okay so leave it alone. 45k is nothing for a GT750. You could also check for corrosion on the multi-plug to the CDI unit under the tank. Had this on a GT550 and it was causing a misfire mid-range. Cleaned up the plug connectors and it ran much better. > You could also check for corrosion on the multi-plug to the CDI unit > under the tank. Had this on a GT550 and it was causing a misfire > mid-range. Cleaned up the plug connectors and it ran much better. It's not a misfire - just drinks fuel. SignatureSimon > Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB What a load of bollocks. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." > > Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB > > What a load of bollocks. He's not saying it's difficult just a pain. TBH, taking the cams out does seem unnecessarily complex - anyway the award for vehicles I don't like adjusting the valves on has to go to VW campers. SignatureSimon >>> Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > award for vehicles I don't like adjusting the valves on has to go to > VW campers. Surely you just pop the engine out? What I used to do on my Beetle was to drop the engine out and do the plugs and tappets at the same time. > > TBH, taking the cams out does seem unnecessarily complex - anyway the > > award for vehicles I don't like adjusting the valves on has to go to > > VW campers. > > Surely you just pop the engine out? What I used to do on my Beetle was > to drop the engine out and do the plugs and tappets at the same time. The 2.0l campers aren't that easy. SignatureSimon > > > Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > award for vehicles I don't like adjusting the valves on has to go to VW > campers. The thing is, there's so much room under the tank, it's a piece of piss. I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to insert a bent feeler gauge through an inspection hole that's damn nearly obscured altogether by a horn or a coil or whatever. And all you need to do is zip-tie the cam sprockets to the chain. You don't have to remove them altogether and that way the timing doesn't go out either. What is a slight pain is having to undo the two dozen bolts (or however many it is) they use to secure the cam cover. Oh, and having to spend £20 a time on a gasket. >What is a slight pain is having to undo the two dozen bolts (or >however many it is) 24 hth SignatureChamp I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk > What is a slight pain is having to undo the two dozen bolts (or > however many it is) they use to secure the cam cover. Oh, and having > to spend £20 a time on a gasket. Removing/replacing the bolts is a bit of a pain, but you soon get used to it and once you've done a few it doesn't seem like so much of a chore. On more modern engines there's usually no need to replace the gasket, they have good quality reuseable rubber ones that sometimes require a just smear of silicone around the half-moon cut outs and that's it. SignatureLozzo Suzuki SV650S K5 Honda CBR600 FW trackbike Yamaha SR250 Spazz-Trakka Suzuki GSXR750 L Suzuki TS50X Suzuki TS50X > > What is a slight pain is having to undo the two dozen bolts (or > > however many it is) they use to secure the cam cover. Oh, and having [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > require a just smear of silicone around the half-moon cut outs and > that's it. I know. Not the old air-cooled Kawas, unfortunately. I'm sure you could re-use the gasket, but I have *never* been able to remove one without breaking it. > What is a slight pain is having to undo the two dozen bolts (or > however many it is) they use to secure the cam cover. Oh, and having > to spend £20 a time on a gasket. Were you gluing the gasket in? Just leaving it with a film of oil on it worked well for me on my GPz550/KZ750/KZ650. The gasket on the ZG1000 has been off and back on many times without needing replacement. Signature'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13 OMF #7 We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk> saying something like: >The thing is, there's so much room under the tank, it's a piece of >piss. I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to insert a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >however many it is) they use to secure the cam cover. Oh, and having >to spend £20 a time on a gasket. AOL. Shims are really a doddle to do once you've done it a couple of times. What I've found over the years is that shimmed engines (at least, the ones I've owned and ran for ten thousands of miles) don't go very much out of adjustment if you don't thrash them much. Bearing that in mind, you can often get away with doing nothing more than a check at the recommended intervals and the need for shim replacement is minimal. SignatureDave GS850x2 XS650 SE6a "It's a moron working with power tools. How much more suspenseful can you get?" - House >> Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB > >What a load of bollocks. <deposits CBX on TOG's drive, goes to pub> >Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB that despatch firms tend >to test GT550's for compression and only check/adjust clearances if the >compression is low on any cylinder. Crude, but effective and a FS cheaper >than unnecessarily pissing about with shims every time. If the compression is dowm, that means it's already leaking out of the valve seats, and therefore (certainly on the exhaust side) burning them out. Sounds like a f.cking abysmal way to check clearances. And anyway, actually *checking* the clearances on those mid-range air-cooled kwaks is a piece of piss. I know lots of people baulk at removing the cams to change a shim, but it's really pretty straightforward. In short, I think you're talking bollocks. SignatureChamp I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk >>Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB that despatch firms >>tend [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > removing the cams to change a shim, but it's really pretty > straightforward. Champ Surprised me when I found out but, having turned over two GT550's from them with no subsequent problems, seems they know their stuff (running a large fleet) and you are wasting your time checking (unless obvious problems). They and I don't advocate this for just anything, and maybe GT's have relatively stable clearances whereas others go tight or loose quickly. Tell you what, you check, shim adjust and generally f.ck about while I'll do mine by compression. Deal? Mitch > maybe GT's have > relatively stable clearances Mine certainly did. SignatureBMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F, SL125 & SH50 chateau dot murray at idnet dot com "What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." >>>Adjustment of the valve clearances are such a PITB that despatch firms >>>tend [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> removing the cams to change a shim, but it's really pretty >> straightforward. >Surprised me when I found out but, having turned over two GT550's from them >with no subsequent problems, seems they know their stuff (running a large >fleet) and you are wasting your time checking (unless obvious problems). >They and I don't advocate this for just anything, and maybe GT's have >relatively stable clearances whereas others go tight or loose quickly. That's a different thing altogether. Yes, those shim-under-bucket motors had very stable valve clearance. But, you must admit that, if you measure it by compression, then the clearance has gone to less than zero and you *will* have hot combustion gases leaking through the valve seat. That cannot be a good thing. SignatureChamp ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle To email me, neal at my domain should work. We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> saying something like: >That's a different thing altogether. Yes, those shim-under-bucket >motors had very stable valve clearance. But, you must admit that, if >you measure it by compression, then the clearance has gone to less >than zero and you *will* have hot combustion gases leaking through the >valve seat. That cannot be a good thing. Exactly. If I was running a bike workshop and found a mechanic checking valve clearances by compression, he'd be out the f.cking door. SignatureDave GS850x2 XS650 SE6a "It's a moron working with power tools. How much more suspenseful can you get?" - House > Exactly. If I was running a bike workshop and found a mechanic > checking valve clearances by compression, he'd be out the f.cking > door. By the time the compression is down the clearances are f.cking miles out. I can't imagine what kind of fuckwit would rely on this method, probably an old BSA or AJS 'engineer' SignatureLozzo Suzuki SV650S K5 Honda CBR600 FW trackbike Yamaha SR250 Spazz-Trakka Suzuki GSXR750 L Suzuki TS50X Suzuki TS50X >>Exactly. If I was running a bike workshop and found a mechanic >>checking valve clearances by compression, he'd be out the f.cking >>door. > By the time the compression is down the clearances are f.cking miles > out. I can't imagine what kind of fuckwit would rely on this method, > probably an old BSA or AJS 'engineer' AOL. Checking the clearances is dead easy on a 2-valve Kawasaki four, as there's only 8 to do. I happen to think it's not all that difficult to change a shim or two, and it's not as if they need to be changed at every inspection anyway, as they don't change much over time. Signature'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13 OMF #7 > > What's the general view? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > needles are worn. That would certainly explain heavy fuel consumption in > the mid-range. I think something is wrong with the carburation - although the top end does sound noisy, not quiet Guzzi levels of noisy but more than even I'd expect from a 20 y/o Jap UJM. I'll check them again and stone, stone cold. I can't believe the 3K step from the Motad is normal but probably unrelated so I'll examine the carbs more. Pisses me off - this is supposed to be the reliable touring machine to go to Slovenia and back - I may take the re-ringed Guzzi. SignatureSimon > > > What's the general view? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Pisses me off - this is supposed to be the reliable touring machine to go > to Slovenia and back - I may take the re-ringed Guzzi. Slovenia, eh? Whereabouts are you headed therein? I'm in the (slow) process of arranging a camping/climbing trip there in July, aboard my newly acquired 'Champagne' '86 230TE, aiming for Bled and Triglav. Also, did you hear about the runaway we had at Lovers Walk early last week? Didn't go far, but put the willies up a few people... -- SeanH - '01 Fazer 600 in black. > Slovenia, eh? Whereabouts are you headed therein? > > I'm in the (slow) process of arranging a camping/climbing trip there > in July, aboard my newly acquired 'Champagne' '86 230TE, aiming for > Bled and Triglav. Bled and Triglav are lovely. The Julian Alps are some of my favourite biking roads. There's a good campsite between Tarvisio (in Italy) and Bovec (in Slovenia). Cross over the Passo di Predil into Slovenia and it's on the RHS as you drop down from the top of the Col. Signaturewessie at tesco dot net BMW R1150GS > Slovenia, eh? Whereabouts are you headed therein? Ziri, to go to see the hog lady. > Also, did you hear about the runaway we had at Lovers Walk early last > week? Didn't go far, but put the willies up a few people... No, what happened? SignatureSimon > > Slovenia, eh? Whereabouts are you headed therein? > > Ziri, to go to see the hog lady. Having scored a ticket for the end of June floods, I definitely won't be doing the Slovenia run now. Signatureogden sv650 (for sale) rgv250 > > Slovenia, eh? Whereabouts are you headed therein? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, what happened? Unit was brought in at the back end of our night shift. DP runners didn't scotch it, was never their job (till now). Day shift fitters approaching the unit should have done it, but forgot. There's a trial running now where all the brake pads are changed out on major exams, so when the air was drained and the last parking brake cracked off, off it went... No damage to the unit, but a new inspection platform resting on the stops will need straightening... -- SeanH - '01 Fazer 600 in black. "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in news:xn0fpfxmqd8fhi004 @news.individual.net: > Pisses me off - this is supposed to be the reliable touring machine to go > to Slovenia and back - I may take the re-ringed Guzzi. Where you going in Slovenia? Last time I went, there was a chap on a Norton Commando with us. Unlike the BMW R1100S[1] and Kwak ZZR1100[2] he didn't have any reliability issues. He did do a thorough service at the end of most days, mind. [1] starter motor [2] front wheel bearing Signaturewessie at tesco dot net BMW R1150GS < snip > > What's the general view? They look fine, but did you ever decide whether you'd oiled the air filter or not? SignatureEddie eddie@deguello.org His: ZX-9R, Elefant 900 http://www.last.fm/group/ukrm Hers: Monster S4R, GSX600F (breaking, everything must go!) > They look fine, but did you ever decide whether you'd oiled the air > filter or not? Not oiled. Fixed quickly. Didn't solve fuel consumption. SignatureSimon >> They look fine, but did you ever decide whether you'd oiled the air >> filter or not? > > Not oiled. Good. > Fixed quickly. You mean, you oiled it? I'm sure it's meant to be dry... > Didn't solve fuel consumption. Oh, well. It's probably the Motad. It gets the blame for everything else... SignatureEddie eddie@deguello.org His: ZX-9R, Elefant 900 http://www.last.fm/group/ukrm Hers: Monster S4R, GSX600F (breaking, everything must go!) > It's really heavy on fuel ~ 35 mpg on a 80-90 mph motorway run > (should be 45mpg). It also 'hunts' slightly sat at 6-7K rpm but its > quite feint. Its maximum speed is 125mph and feels wooly sub 5K > (with the 3K step due to the f.cking Motad) but idles well enough. [snip] > The clearances are 0.08 - 0.18, the clearances I measured are > supposed to be shown as "/" the feeler gauge fitted and "x" it didn't. > > What's the general view? Some of the clearances are marginal, but not that bad. It sounds like it's running rich at low revs, lean in the mid range, and OK at WOT... OK at WOT means the main jets are not badly blocked. If that is a lean hunt in the mid-range, then the needle jets might be blocked enough to affect fuelling with the needle lowered. If it's running rich at low rpm, but not above, maybe the air pilots are blocked or the emulsion holes in the needle jet are. Could be almost anything, really, you probably need to take the carbs apart and clean them. On the GPZ I had to use mole grips on some of the carb's bolts/screws to get them to move, and liquid gasket to seal the diaphragm tops. Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Simian <simian@in_valid.semi-evolved.org> typed >> What's the general view? > >It sounds like it's running rich at low revs, lean in the mid range, >and OK at WOT... A fairly obvious solution presents itself. SignatureWicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest" My position was (and, to be honest, largely remains) one of complete ambiguity. > Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Simian > <simian@in_valid.semi-evolved.org> typed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > A fairly obvious solution presents itself. TBH, I'm surprised sweller noticed anything was wrong. > > > It sounds like it's running rich at low revs, lean in the mid range, > > > and OK at WOT... > > > > A fairly obvious solution presents itself. > > TBH, I'm surprised sweller noticed anything was wrong. I noticed the frequency of petrol station visits. SignatureSimon "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message <xn0fpfvbha15bz001@news.individual.net>: >It's really heavy on fuel ~ 35 mpg on a 80-90 mph motorway run (should be >45mpg). It also 'hunts' slightly sat at 6-7K rpm but its quite feint. >Its maximum speed is 125mph and feels wooly sub 5K (with the 3K step due >to the f.cking Motad) but idles well enough. <snip> Pretty much with the others re the valve clearances. I'd fiddle with them but wouldn't expect it to make much difference to the fuel consumption. I had one, also with a Motad, some years back and over the 2000 miles I ran it for it averaged 37mpg. Main use was commuting- cruising at the 80-90 mark etc. etc. The carbs were a bit f.cked IIRC, 'cos it was running a bit rich according to the plugs. SignatureK75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA, Z500/Velorex chair. ST1100. K100 (arriving soon) Squire ST2 sat in a shed waiting to be spliced. In communiqué <1kv914d5cms6d296phm21rs6fa8hne26n3@4ax.com>, deadmail@burnt.org.uk cast forth these pearls of wisdom > "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message ><xn0fpfvbha15bz001@news.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The carbs were a bit f.cked IIRC, 'cos it was running a bit rich >according to the plugs. Could that have been the common Motad factor though? Is that a 4 - 1 replacing a 4 - 2 ? I know nothing of fours, but some 2 - 1 s on Morinis do strange things to the mid range carburation. Signature+----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pete Fisher at Home: Peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk | | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z | | Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > In communiqué <1kv914d5cms6d296phm21rs6fa8hne26n3@4ax.com>, > deadmail@burnt.org.uk cast forth these pearls of wisdom [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Could that have been the common Motad factor though? You may have hit the nail here. Mine had standard pipes and did about 40-45 mpg but never hit 125 mph, it would manage about 115 indicated on a long straight. Maybe Motad engineered their pipe for optimum flat out performance at the expense of everything else. The gutlessness below 5K is normal, they all do that sir. It's a 2 valve/cyl GPz engine in a lardy tourer package. I wouldn't bother about the valve clearances, as they're close and with those shims under buckets it's a camshaft out job. >>>I had one, also with a Motad, some years back and over the 2000 miles I >>>ran it for it averaged 37mpg. Main use was commuting- cruising at the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >long straight. Maybe Motad engineered their pipe for optimum >flat out performance at the expense of everything else. Hmm. I had one when they were relatively current (87~88), with stock pipes, and it did 125mph and returned near 50mpg two up with luggage (tho not at the same time, of course). >The gutlessness below 5K is normal, they all do that sir. It's a 2 >valve/cyl GPz engine in a lardy tourer package. There's some truth in this. My view is that's a combinations of 20 year old machine, fairly crappy exhaust and some carb issues. SignatureChamp I don't know, but I been told, you never slow down, you never get old ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) neal at champ dot org dot uk >My view is that's a combinations of 20 year old machine, fairly crappy >exhaust and some carb issues. Whereas I simply blame pagans. > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:10:18 +0100, Ian Northeast > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 (race) > neal at champ dot org dot uk The Motad was designed to give the best overall performance- at an acceptable price. Certainly a 4-1 is going to "glitch" low down unless the top end is compromised. its the age old problem- if we make a 4-2 system that replicates original power, it will still be half the price of the original but still close to £500- and how many of you with a £500 bike is going to buy that?. the "crappy exhaust" is i think (as Mr Motad of course I would) a bit over the top- at the price is offers a reasonable UK made solution Ian McDonald Motad > I had one, also with a Motad, some years back and over the 2000 miles I > ran it for it averaged 37mpg. Main use was commuting- cruising at the > 80-90 mark etc. etc. Which is how I use it. I'll sort the carbs out and then I may try another exhaust as the Motad is sh.t. Marshall Deeptones are available and, importantly, cheap. Know anything about them? SignatureSimon "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message <xn0fpgq69yt9wq003@news.individual.net>: >> I had one, also with a Motad, some years back and over the 2000 miles I >> ran it for it averaged 37mpg. Main use was commuting- cruising at the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Marshall Deeptones are available and, importantly, cheap. Know anything >about them? Nothing at all. However I'm not completely convinced the carbs were right on mine. I seem to remember 'repairing' the diapragms with silicon gasket sealent on several occasions. SignatureK75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA, Z500/Velorex chair. ST1100. K100 (arriving soon) Squire ST2 sat in a shed waiting to be spliced. On 28 Apr, 08:51, deadm...@burnt.org.uk wrote: > "sweller" <swel...@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > seem to remember 'repairing' the diapragms with silicon gasket sealent > on several occasions. Having had to replace the diaphragms on my old Z400 twin (the one that went to Petrolcan, and then got nicked), the symptoms of buggered diaphragms is that the engine starts, runs and ticks over perfectly, but hits a brick wall bell below top speed, no matter how much you open the throttle. In this case, it was 70-75mph. Same thing with a mate's XLV750, now I think about it. Fuel consumption isn't affected at all. and if Sweller can get 125 out of it, that says to me that the diaphragms are probably OK. The most I ever saw on the clocks when I had it was about 130. |
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