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Motorcycle Forum / Country Specific / UK Group / April 2008Paging the Science / Biology / Ecology types
Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type books for this sort of thing? > Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type books > for this sort of thing? paging the pixies. Retail opportunity...  Signaturewessie at tesco dot net BMW R1150GS > Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type > books for this sort of thing? Er... what sort of thing???? Without knowing a bit more about what you intend to study (and at what level) its not possible to make any specific recommendations. However, if you are lookng for introductory stuff then OU course materials might be a good starting point. -- Tony '08 DL650GT, '04 XL1200C, '95 LS650 (in bits - being rebuilt), OMF#24 >> Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type >> books for this sort of thing? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > OU > course materials might be a good starting point. Undergrad dissertation. Looking for quick guidance on stats in excel and which stats do what in book form. I'm hoping to find some patterns in data for bats using various kinds of man made bat box. >>> Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type >>> books for this sort of thing? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >which stats do what in book form. I'm hoping to find some patterns in data >for bats using various kinds of man made bat box. My advise would be to leave well alone. Just stick to reporting stuff with maths you can understand, and state quite clearly that you'll leave more detailed stats analysis to the professionals. If you do try to do it yourself, you're building a rod for your own back, as any real statistician will be incapable of looking at your report without tearing it to pieces. It's not personal, they just can't help it. Maybe it's genetic, but put three statisticians in a room with a poorly-designed study report and you'll get at least five distinct "correct" interpretations. Signature_______ .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (b.rogers at ifrance.com) \`\ | /`/ `\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10 `\|/` ` <snip stats book stuff> >>Undergrad dissertation. Looking for quick guidance on stats in excel and >>which stats do what in book form. I'm hoping to find some patterns in data >>for bats using various kinds of man made bat box. I'm sure you've probably got plenty already, but I may be able to point you in the direction of some interesting papers on bat stuff and use of roosting sites. >My advise would be to leave well alone. Just stick to reporting stuff >with maths you can understand, and state quite clearly that you'll >leave more detailed stats analysis to the professionals. Unfortunately (for students) most dissertations for applied science degrees will require a good level of detailed stats analysis to be carried out. Mine was a complete nightmare and involved using principal component analysis (amongst other things) to assess underlying environmental gradients in my data ... it was 'fun' to say the least. >If you do try to do it yourself, you're building a rod for your own >back, as any real statistician will be incapable of looking at your >report without tearing it to pieces. It's not personal, they just >can't help it. Maybe it's genetic, but put three statisticians in a >room with a poorly-designed study report and you'll get at least five >distinct "correct" interpretations. This is the part I'm dreading with my research ... as my project crosses several levels of above/belowground ecology, I'm getting all sorts of conflicting advice, some of it from my supervisors ...aargh :) SignatureElly - A Pixie up to her elbows in soil ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles> Spike - FZ400 - It's dead Jim! MRO#32 ibW#25 BoTAFOT#46 BoTAFOF #46 GP#1 UKRMRM#00 TWA#3 DFV#15 http://www.garagepixies.co.uk elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk > <snip stats book stuff> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > point you in the direction of some interesting papers on bat stuff and > use of roosting sites. I'm pretty much there already. It's only an undergrad dissertation... >>My advise would be to leave well alone. Just stick to reporting stuff >>with maths you can understand, and state quite clearly that you'll [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > underlying environmental gradients in my data ... it was 'fun' to say > the least. I'm almost grateful for the stats module I paid no attention to in A-level maths. Still, barely any of the stuff we covered is used at degree level. I feel sorry for the luddites and those who didn't do maths past GCSE who are grappling with this stuff... >> <snip stats book stuff> >> I'm sure you've probably got plenty already, but I may be able to >> point you in the direction of some interesting papers on bat stuff and >> use of roosting sites. > >I'm pretty much there already. It's only an undergrad dissertation... LOl, so was mine, but the refs still ran to 6 pages of primary literature. You (and your supervisor) sound far more relaxed about it all than I was. >I'm almost grateful for the stats module I paid no attention to in A-level >maths. Still, barely any of the stuff we covered is used at degree level. I >feel sorry for the luddites and those who didn't do maths past GCSE who are >grappling with this stuff... That would have been me then ... got a CSE grade 4 in maths *way* back in 1983(ish), partly thanks to inept teaching (1) at the age of 9/10 that gave me a huge confidence problem with anything maths related. Thankfully, the access course I did prior to starting the degree got me back on track with maths, and the stats training that we received at the University of Northampton was absolutely excellent. Just goes to show that you can teach an old dog (2) new tricks! (1) Thank you Mrs Sewell, it took a very long time to undo what you managed to do in less than a year. (2) Quiet at the back there. SignatureElly - A Pixie doing a PhD ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles> Spike - FZ400 - It's dead Jim! MRO#32 ibW#25 BoTAFOT#46 BoTAFOF #46 GP#1 UKRMRM#00 TWA#3 DFV#15 http://www.garagepixies.co.uk elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk >>> <snip stats book stuff> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > literature. You (and your supervisor) sound far more relaxed about it > all than I was. Blimey, that's going some. I reckon I'd struggle to find that amount of stuff to be honest. That said, I've only lately properly grasped how to get at journal articles online, after 2 years of never being able to find a thing. If you think you have anything useful I'd be very grateful if you can send it across BTW. My reply address is valid. I'm probably relaxed because I'm used to working close to the wire, and I think my supervisor has given up hoping to change things... Always been like it with academic stuff. >>I'm almost grateful for the stats module I paid no attention to in A-level >>maths. Still, barely any of the stuff we covered is used at degree level. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > managed to do in less than a year. > (2) Quiet at the back there. It's amazing just how much difference a bad teacher can make. >"Elly" wrote >>>> <snip stats book stuff> >>>> I'm sure you've probably got plenty already, but I may be able to >>>> point you in the direction of some interesting papers on bat stuff and >>>> use of roosting sites. >>>I'm pretty much there already. It's only an undergrad dissertation... >> LOl, so was mine, but the refs still ran to 6 pages of primary >> literature. You (and your supervisor) sound far more relaxed about it >> all than I was. >Blimey, that's going some. I reckon I'd struggle to find that amount of >stuff to be honest. That said, I've only lately properly grasped how to get >at journal articles online, after 2 years of never being able to find a >thing. That was about normal for our cohort. One thing I'm very grateful to UoN for was the emphasis placed on using journal papers from year one. I take it you do have access to the wonder that is 'Athens'? if you do, 'Web of Science' is an excellent source for finding papers and also has a handy citation thing, so you can easily find related papers. Scopus is also great for that if you have access. >If you think you have anything useful I'd be very grateful if you can >send it across BTW. My reply address is valid. I'll see what I can find. >I'm probably relaxed because I'm used to working close to the wire, and I >think my supervisor has given up hoping to change things... Always been like >it with academic stuff. Heh, most of my best stuff was produced in a mad flurry of activity merely days before hand-in dates. A hard habit to break, for sure. My dissertation was written over a period of 2 weeks, with the bulk of it being in the final 72 hours (with no sleep) before the due date ... still managed an A-. I swore that I'd never put myself in that position again after that ... guess what, I still do it :) SignatureElly - A Pixie doing a PhD ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles> Spike - FZ400 - It's dead Jim! MRO#32 ibW#25 BoTAFOT#46 BoTAFOF #46 GP#1 UKRMRM#00 TWA#3 DFV#15 http://www.garagepixies.co.uk elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk >>>"Doki" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > I'll see what I can find. Bat box stuff is the most useful. Don't go nuts over it as I think I've got most of the relevant stuff - Stebbings, bits and bobs from Kunz, Kerth et al, Flaquer et al, Lourenco & Palmeirim etc. >>> Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type >>> books for this sort of thing? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and which stats do what in book form. I'm hoping to find some > patterns in data for bats using various kinds of man made bat box. A decision tree may help e.g. http://www.microsiris.com/Statistical%20Decision%20Tree/ However, it sounds like you may have the problem of trying to do some kind of post-hoc analysis on data already collected. Did you design the study with the method of data analysis in mind? If not then it often creates problems. Also - beware of using inappropriate tests. You need to consider what kind of data you have. Is it cardinal (real numbers eg measurements in cm), ordinal (rank order eg bigger>smaller) or nominal (categories such as male or female). Cardinal data requires orthodox statistical tests whereas ordinal and nominal require non-parametric tests. There are also some tests that can be used to compare parametric data with non-parametric data. -- Tony '08 DL650GT, '04 XL1200C, '95 LS650 (in bits - being rebuilt), OMF#24 >>>> Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type >>>> books for this sort of thing? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > with the method of data analysis in mind? If not then it often creates > problems. *ding*. Data has been given to me and whilst it's probably not ideal for analysis it's in an area that's doable for a dissertation. A lot of the other stuff I looked at resulted in naff all appearing during the lit search phase of things. > Also - beware of using inappropriate tests. You need to consider what > kind [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tests > that can be used to compare parametric data with non-parametric data. Sounds like I'll be looking at non-parametric then. Ta for the help. >Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type books for >this sort of thing? One of the friendlier ones is this .. Dytham, C. (2003) Choosing and Using Statistics - A Biologist's Guide. 2nd ed. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing. It's a very accessible stats book which has a handy key at the beginning which will guide you to which stats to use for what type of data you're collecting. Chances are that your library will have a copy. The OU also do a reasonable guide on research methods and experimental techniques ... I can't think of the exact title but again, any half decent uni library will have it in the research methods/stats section (somewhere around the 570s). As for using Excel, hhmm, whilst it's ok for some simpler stats stuff, you may find having access to something like Minitab or SPSS (1) useful. Does your uni do a discount software buying thing at all? if not, drop me an email, I may be able to help. What year are you in? Hopefully not final if you're starting to look at stats for a dissertation now :) HTH 1 - yes I know you proper stats people hate them -- Elly - A Pixie doing a PhD ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles> Spike - FZ400 - It's dead Jim! MRO#32 ibW#25 BoTAFOT#46 BoTAFOF #46 GP#1 UKRMRM#00 TWA#3 DFV#15 http://www.garagepixies.co.uk elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk In the referenced article, Elly <ellySPAM@garagepixies.co.uk> writes: >>Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type books for >>this sort of thing? >As for using Excel, hhmm, whilst it's ok for some simpler stats >stuff, you may find having access to something like Minitab or SPSS >(1) useful. Does your uni do a discount software buying thing at >all? if not, drop me an email, I may be able to help. R is free: http://www.r-project.org/ SignatureDifferenza fra il rivoluzionaro e il cialtrone. Il rivoluzionario rompe l'orologio e invece di presentarsi alle nove si presenta alle nove meno cinque. Il cialtrone rompe l'orologio e si alza alle undici. Michael Carley: http://people.bath.ac.uk/ensmjc/ >>Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type books for >>this sort of thing? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > useful. Does your uni do a discount software buying thing at all? if > not, drop me an email, I may be able to help. We've had lectures on SPSS but according to my supervisor it's not necessary to get into that level of statistical pain. More looking at the fairly simple stuff you can do in Excel - t-tests and the like. I already have a subsidised copy of SPSS but I've no desire to start wrangling with getting it activated on a new PC or with its arcane interface. > What year are you in? Hopefully not final if you're starting to look > at stats for a dissertation now :) I'm not one for starting things early... In the referenced article, "Doki" <mrdoki@gmail.com> writes: >We've had lectures on SPSS but according to my supervisor it's not >necessary to get into that level of statistical pain. More looking at >the fairly simple stuff you can do in Excel - t-tests and the like. I >already have a subsidised copy of SPSS but I've no desire to start >wrangling with getting it activated on a new PC or with its arcane >interface. Don't use Excel: Computing Algorithms for Basic Statistics Excel Uses Poor Algorithms To Find The Standard Deviation (See Help screen for STDEV shown above) Excel Defines The First Quartile To Be The Ordered Observation At Position (n+3)/4 Excel Does Not Treat Tied Observations Correctly When Ranking Regression Computations Are Often Erroneous Due To Poor Algorithms (See below) In addition Excel, usually displays many more digits than appropriate. (See histogram and paired t-test output shown above.) Finally, Excel has major and documented difficulties with its regression procedures. Regression in Excel Does Not Treat Zero-Intercept Models Correctly Sometimes Gets Negative Sums Of Squares Does Not Handle Multicollinearity Correctly Computes Standardized Residuals Incorrectly! Displays Normal Probability Plots That Are Completely Wrong! Makes Variable Selection Very Difficult www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jcryer/JSMTalk2001.pdf SignatureDifferenza fra il rivoluzionaro e il cialtrone. Il rivoluzionario rompe l'orologio e invece di presentarsi alle nove si presenta alle nove meno cinque. Il cialtrone rompe l'orologio e si alza alle undici. Michael Carley: http://people.bath.ac.uk/ensmjc/ > In the referenced article, "Doki" <mrdoki@gmail.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jcryer/JSMTalk2001.pdf I'm sure you're right, *but* if that's what's been recommended to me by my supervisor, who will presumably also be marking it, I can't see any sense in using SPSS when I don't have to. Given that more time I might go down that route, but it's not especially practical now. In the referenced article, "Doki" <mrdoki@gmail.com> writes: >Can any of you suggest some decent research methods / stats type >books for this sort of thing? This is free and written by the master of data analysis: http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/dapp/ SignatureDifferenza fra il rivoluzionaro e il cialtrone. Il rivoluzionario rompe l'orologio e invece di presentarsi alle nove si presenta alle nove meno cinque. Il cialtrone rompe l'orologio e si alza alle undici. Michael Carley: http://people.bath.ac.uk/ensmjc/ |
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